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What about "God is Spirit" don't you accept? Christians only (all variants)
- Thread starter Scuba Pete
- Start date
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
That would be fodder for another thread: this one is about "Just what about "God is Spirit" don't you get?"Polaris said:
So, do you have any scriptures that support God being a physical entity? Or am I the only one willing to trot out scripture?
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
I know of no scriptures that tell us either, do you?Squirt said:
I do know about one scripture that tells us what our spirit does:
I Corinthians 2:10 The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. NIV
However, the spirit is NOT the mind (check out I Corinthians 14), it's deeper than that and is closely intertwined with the Soul.
Oh, come on now... You were more than willing to go off on a fairly lengthy discussion about what kind of death Adam and Eve experienced when they ate the forbidden fruit. Was that somehow more closely related to this thread than a discussion of what "spirit" actually is? There are a lot of words that are used throughout the scriptures that aren't specifically defined in the scriptures. I'm asking a totally logical question. If God is spirit and nothing else, what does that make Him? I'm thinking maybe you just don't have an answer.NetDoc said:That would be fodder for another thread: this one is about "Just what about "God is Spirit" don't you get?"
I sure do, but my son needs to use my computer for awhile, so it will have to wait a short while.
Bishka
Veteran Member
NetDoc said:That would be fodder for another thread: this one is about "Just what about "God is Spirit" don't you get?"
So, do you have any scriptures that support God being a physical entity? Or am I the only one willing to trot out scripture?
Obviously you'll only want Bible scripture and that's no fun to play only on your terms.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Sorry Squirt! I added the "quote=" argument to clarify who I was replying to!
Now Becky,
We have had the Catechism quoted and I didn't cry foul! Trot out your scriptures and let's take a look!
Now Becky,
We have had the Catechism quoted and I didn't cry foul! Trot out your scriptures and let's take a look!
Bishka
Veteran Member
NetDoc said:Sorry Squirt! I added the "quote=" argument to clarify who I was replying to!
Now Becky,
We have had the Catechism quoted and I didn't cry foul! Trot out your scriptures and let's take a look!
Oh, I will. And we have plenty to back up in our scriptures that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are seperate distinct beings and that they have a body. I'll get back to you on this, but I'm sure Squirt will beat me to it.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Here's a great scripture from Job:
Job 32:7 I thought, 'Age should speak;
advanced years should teach wisdom.'
8 But it is the spirit in a man,
the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding. 9 It is not only the old who are wise,
not only the aged who understand what is right. NIV
Job 32:7 I thought, 'Age should speak;
advanced years should teach wisdom.'
8 But it is the spirit in a man,
the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding. 9 It is not only the old who are wise,
not only the aged who understand what is right. NIV
Polaris
Active Member
NetDoc said:
My questions are very relavant to your topic. If God truly is just a being of spirit, than I am suggesting that us being created as physical beings is pointless. The mere fact that we are physical beings implies that God, being our Father, is a physical being. I might feel differently if there was no resurrection, but Christ was resurrected as a physical being, no more susceptible to death - like the Father.
For whatever reason you're simply dodging my questions.
NetDoc said:
Squirt has already referred to scriptures that apply physical attributes to God, but I'll give you a specific reference of one. Matthew 18:10 refers to angels beholding the "face of my Father which is in heaven". Also in John 14:9 Jesus states "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father". What is your take on these scriptures along with all the others that associate God with physical attributes?
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
They don't appear to be referring to a "physical" face, and in John 14, Jesus was OBVIOUSLY trying to get them to understand that they are SEEING GOD'S CHARECTOR in him. He was also proving the point that He and the Father are ONE. (Sorry, had to point that out )
)
Polaris
Active Member
NetDoc said:
This is a perfect example. Because you are so hung up on your interpretation of the "God is a spirit" passage, you are forced to interpret all scriptures that make reference to a physical characteristic of God (which are many) as figurative, or you have to imply some additional meaning that isn't stated. Some may be intended to be figurative and some may not have been, but you're stuck making them all figurative or you would find a contradition with your "spirit" verse. I however can read the scripture as stated and take it to be literal or figurative based on the context of the passage without concern of contradiction.
NetDoc said:He was also proving the point that He and the Father are ONE. (Sorry, had to point that out
Yeah then He goes on to say "I go unto my Father" and several times refers to the Father as He, in third person. How do you reconcile that? Yeah I know -- not this thread.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
I don't feel stuck!Polaris said:
That this is pretty complicated, and that neither of us may be able to understand the reality of it. As for the "trinity"... I don't find the word in the Scriptures and so choose not to use it. I do find some of the charecteristics that are expressed by the to be true.Polaris said:
But this is precisely why many of the Jews refused to believe in Jesus: he didn't bring in a "physical" kingdom, but a spiritual one! Take a look at our battle:
II Corinthians 10:3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. NIV
Now isn't THIS an interesting scripture...
Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. NIV
There was nary a mention of physical blessings, now were there? No where in the scriptures does it exhort us to be more physical. Why is that? BECAUSE MAN HAS A HARD TIME FOCUSING ON THE SPIRITUAL. They don't think it very important, now do they?
NetDoc said:They don't appear to be referring to a "physical" face, and in John 14, Jesus was OBVIOUSLY trying to get them to understand that they are SEEING GOD'S CHARECTOR in him. He was also proving the point that He and the Father are ONE. (Sorry, had to point that out
First of all, compare Genesis 1:26 to Genesis 5:1:
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
Genesis 5:1 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth.
I think most people would agree that Adam begat a son who resembled him physically. When exactly the same phrasing is used in these two verses, what conceivable reason is there to interpret them differently? Also consider the fact that the previous two verses (Genesis 1:24-25) are undeniably speaking of physical attributes. All of God's creatures reproduce after their own kind.
Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
In spite of the fact that no one supposedly can see God and live, Jacob did precisely that.
Exodus 24:10-11 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
But it wasn't really God they saw, was it? It was... what? A spirit posing as God?
Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
This one is the clearest of all. It's almost shouting at us: God doesn't just take on the appearance of a man when He happens to feel like it! This is His real form. Moses spoke to Him face to face, the same way he'd have spoken to any other man. This verse described an actual event. It was not metaphorical or symbolic or figurative. It happened exactly as we read it.
Exodus 33:22-23 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Tell me, if you will... If this did not transpire as it is described, what really did happen. Are you going to tell me that it wasn't a physical hand, a physical back and a physical face? What kind of a hand, back and face was it?
Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
I know. The pure in heart won't really see God. The angels don't really behold His face. It's all just a metaphor for something else.
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Jesus said that His disciples haven't seen His Father's shape, but notice, if you will -- He does not deny that His Father has a shape. If anything, this verse implies that He does have one.
Acts 7:55-56 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Jesus was standing on the right hand of God. But God has no form and is invisible. Explain this, please.
Hebrews 1:1-3 God hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high
Jesus has the divine attributes (i.e. the glory) of His Father. He also has the appearance (i.e. the express image) of His Father's person.
Now you can go on all you want about God not having a physical appearance. But I have provided you with ten passages of scripture that speak of Him as having a physical, human form. Your determination to deny that these scriptures mean exactly what they say is really almost amusing. If we had just one verse mentioning God's hand or face, perhaps you more easily convince me that it shouldn't be interpreted literally, but not with this many that clearly describe Him in anthropomorphic terms.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Fair enough, but every single one of those passages can be read allegorically. People say my daughter is my spitting image (just yesterday by my wife). We look NOTHING alike, but our character and mischievousness are near identical. She has my spirit, but not my looks.
Now, if Jesus was made in God's image and I am made in God's image and You are made in God's image and that image is PHYSICAL, then why don't we look alike? Why don't we even look like brothers? Are you suggesting that someone born with no arms or legs is NOT in God's image? How about the baby with spina bifida? What about God gets old like the rest of us? Did God start out as an infant?
Now, please show me where we are exhorted to imitate God's physicality. Look at this scripture:
Mark 7:14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "
17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") 20 He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' " NIV
Do you see how the PHYSICAL is superseded by the SPIRITUAL???
Now, if Jesus was made in God's image and I am made in God's image and You are made in God's image and that image is PHYSICAL, then why don't we look alike? Why don't we even look like brothers? Are you suggesting that someone born with no arms or legs is NOT in God's image? How about the baby with spina bifida? What about God gets old like the rest of us? Did God start out as an infant?
Now, please show me where we are exhorted to imitate God's physicality. Look at this scripture:
Mark 7:14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "
17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") 20 He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' " NIV
Do you see how the PHYSICAL is superseded by the SPIRITUAL???
Scott1
Well-Known Member
It would seem pointless... unless God became man.Polaris said:
Is the Mormon "eternal mother" goddess a physical being as well?
Where is this "Father" of yours?
Would it be possible to see God, Jesus and the eternal mother if one knew where to look?
All with Peter to Jesus through Mary,
Scott
