Do you believe in a literal, physical resurrection?

sojourner · Mar 13, 2006

lunamoth said:
Thank you sojourner. Much more concisely stated than I put it.

Yes, I can't see how it would make a difference whether cremated or decomposed in the grave. Either way our molecules are broken down and scattered, recyled into new living organisms or spread across the earth. Quite likely that we've shared atoms with other people who have come before us.

peace,
lunamoth

Plus, it makes a powerful theological statement that we return to the dust from which God formed us. And, it's ecologically sound...

michel · Mar 13, 2006

Squirt said:
Well, let's put your need for a physical body aside for just a minute. I'd appreciate hearing your answers to these questions:

1) Do you believe that Jesus Christ was physically resurrected? He pointed out to His Apostles that He had a body of flesh and bones. His body was missing from the tomb and the one He showed them bore its wounds. Was He just playing with their heads, or what?

2) What you you believe the word "resurrection" means? Think about it awhile. Do you believe that it means the bringing back to life of something that was dead? If so, and if you don't believe the body will be resurrected, do you believe that, at death, the spirit dies? When do you believe it is given renewed life?

3) Now, back to your first statement... When you see your wife and kids in Heaven, wouldn't you like to be able to throw your arms around them? Wouldn't you like to be able to kiss your wife again? Or don't you believe they will even be recognizable to you, and that's why you don't need a physical body?

Not really. We just disagree, that's all, and I'd like to understand the reasoning behind your beliefs.

The reasoning behind my beliefs?................eeek! you don't know what you are asking for

1. I honestly don't know
2. As far as I believe, resurection means the freeing of the Soul from the physical body, so that it may return to 'God'. But I believe in reincarnation, which continues until that time when we are 'perfect' and can become at one with God.
3. There is no need for a coporeal body; I believe that the 'soul' can take on any shape
for 'convenience'; there however is no need for physical contact for love between spirits.

Well, you did ask...........

joeboonda · Mar 13, 2006

Jesus is the "first fruits" the first to be ressurrected bodily, as the tomb was empty, and Lazarus whom Jesus bodily ressurected died again, so Jesus is the first to be ressurrected to life eternal. Let me show you something from I Thess. 4:

4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Okay, first, it says those who are already dead, are with Christ when he returns, perhaps in a temporary spriritual body, or just their spirit, whatever. Fact is they come back with Him (absent from the body present with the Lord). Next note that they spake this by "the word of the Lord", in other words, this is true and of God. Next it says we who are alive shall not 'prevent', which in old english means 'go before' those which are asleep, (dead in Christ), and that they, the dead in Christ will rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up with them in the air and will forever be with the Lord. This is what many of us call the rapture, where Christ meets His own in the air, whereas at the 2nd Coming He splits the Mount of Olives with His feet when He comes to earth with ten thousands of His saints.
Anyway, this rapture, is when we receive our new glorified bodies, incorruptible, immortal, as it speaks of in I Cor. 15: 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians)

So, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye we will be ressurrected or raptured if still alive, are old bodies miraculously coming together from the molecules or wherever, and transforming into new glorified, immortal, incorruptible bodies, and we shall be with Jesus forever. This is the blessed hope of every beliver and why we rejoice because He bought us and holds us in His hands and nothing is greater than God, not even you nor me, and our eternal security in Him, and His promise to some folks, that we may never even experience death, and to those already with Him, we will all be united in wondrous bodies, our bodies, but changed! Haleluia, gives you hope for life!

Squirt · Mar 13, 2006

michel said:
The reasoning behind my beliefs?................eeek! you don't know what you are asking for
1. I honestly don't know

Well, I appreciate your honesty, but don't you think this is a significant enough Christian doctrine to dismiss so casually?

2. As far as I believe, resurection means the freeing of the Soul from the physical body, so that it may return to 'God'. But I believe in reincarnation, which continues until that time when we are 'perfect' and can become at one with God.

Ah, yes. I'd forgotten about your belief in reincarnation. Do you find this belief in any of Jesus' teachings, Michel?

3. There is no need for a coporeal body; I believe that the 'soul' can take on any shape for 'convenience'; there however is no need for physical contact for love between spirits.

Well, I can't argue with you there as you have simply stated your own opinion and you are entitled to it. Personally, I can't wait to hug my dad again.

Well, you did ask...........

Yup, I did. Thanks for answering.

Squirt · Mar 13, 2006

lunamoth said:
Interesting! So, you think the transformed body is made of the exact same molecules as our present body. I guess I resist this interpretation because I am a biologist.

Ah, that explains your screen name! Well, my sister is a middle-school science teacher, and as I tell her, the average sixth-grader has probably got a better grasp of biology than I do. Earth and life sciences were always my hardest subjects in school. At any rate, I don't really have an answer to that question. I do believe that the bodies we had during our mortal life will be resurrected. But I also believe that they will be perfected and made immortal. So a child with Down Syndrome would be resurrected without that disability. As a non-biologist, I can't even begin to imagine how that's going to happen. But since I believe that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, I suspect God will figure out a way to do it.

w00t · Mar 15, 2006

Whilst I might believe that God kicked off evolution and the laws of physics, I don't think he overturns them, so resurrection of the body is clearly impossible and who wants their flawed physical bodies back anyway? I think when we die our spirit or soul moves on, our body decays and remains earthbound.

michel · Mar 15, 2006

Squirt said:
Well, I appreciate your honesty, but don't you think this is a significant enough Christian doctrine to dismiss so casually?

Ah, yes. I'd forgotten about your belief in reincarnation. Do you find this belief in any of Jesus' teachings, Michel?

Well, I can't argue with you there as you have simply stated your own opinion and you are entitled to it. Personally, I can't wait to hug my dad again.

Yup, I did. Thanks for answering.

Put it this way; I believe Christ lived, and died for our salvation. That is why I call myself a 'follower of Christ'.

As for Biblical references; I have no Idea how 'reliable' this is:-http://www.144000.net/txt/origen3e.htm

There is one episode in particular from the healing miracles of Christ that seems to point to reincarnation: "And as he was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, 'Rabbi, who has sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?" Jesus answered, 'Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents, but the works of God were to be made manifest in him.'" (John 9:1) The disciples ask the Lord if the man himself could have committed the sin that led to his blindness. Given the fact that the man has been blind from birth, we are confronted with a provocative question. When could he have made such transgressions as to make him blind at birth? The only conceivable answer is in some prenatal state. The question as posed by the disciples explicitly presupposes prenatal existence. It will also be noted that Christ says nothing to dispel or correct the presupposition. Here is incontrovertible support for a doctrine of human preexistence.

Also very suggestive of reincarnation is the episode where Jesus identifies John the Baptist as Elijah. "For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come." (Matt 11:13-14) "And the disciples asked him, saying, 'Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?' But he answered them and said, 'Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand.' Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matt 17:10-13)

Here again is a clear statement of preexistence. Despite the edict of the Emperor Justinian and the counter reaction to Origen, there is firm and explicit testimony for preexistence in both the Old and the New Testament. Indeed, the ban against Origen notwithstanding, contemporary Christian scholarship acknowledges preexistence as one of the elements of Judeo-Christian theology.

As for the John the Baptist-Elijah episode, there can be little question as to its purpose. By identifying the Baptist as Elijah, Jesus is identifying himself as the Messiah. Throughout the gospel narrative there are explicit references to the signs that will precede the Messiah. "Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord." (Mal 4:5) This is one of the many messianic promises of the Old Testament. One of the signs that the true Messiah has come, according to this passage from Malachi, is that he be preceded by a forerunner, by Elijah.

Jesus was sometimes taken to be a reincarnation of one of the prophets. In Mark 8:27, Jesus asks "Whom do men say that I am?" The consensus of opinion seems to have been that He was a reincarnation of either John the Baptist, Elijah, or one of the Old Testament prophets. It is hard to see how Jesus could have been a reincarnation of the prophet by whom He was baptized, but that has not deterred these believers in reincarnation around Jesus.

Indeed the reincarnationist can even find scriptural support for personal disincarnate preexistence. Origen took Eph 1:4 as proof for his case: "He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish in his sight and love." Jerome, who is just as uncomfortable as Justinian about preexistence, interprets the passage to mean that we preexisted, not in distinct disincarnate form, but simply in the mind of God (Against Rufinus 1.22), and from this throng of thoughts God chose the elect before the creation of the world. The distinction is indeed a fine one, for Jerome is asking us to distinguish between that which exists as a soul and that which exists as a thought. What is illuminating for the reincarnationist is that this passage from Ephesians offers very explicit scriptural testimony for individual preexistence.
The article is continued..........

Do you believe in a literal, physical resurrection?

sojourner

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michel

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joeboonda

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Squirt

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Squirt

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w00t

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michel

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