Do you believe in a literal, physical resurrection?

[Squirt]

This is a "Christians only" debate.

Before joining this forum, I was of the impression that one belief all Christians shared was the belief in a literal resurrection, where our spirits and new, immortal bodies would be united forever. Since coming here, I have been surprised to see that quite a number of Christians don't believe that at all.

I'm really curious as to what Biblical evidence supports this point of view and why those of you who reject the concept of a literal, physical resurrection believe as you do.

(Also, nobody's posting anything new on the threads I'm interested and I'm tired of clicking on "Get All New Posts" and getting nothing new! )

 

[Bishka]

I do, but of course you knew that.

 

[Geoffthe3rd]

I also agree with it, im very glad to see more similarities between the LDS and Catholic Church :bounce

 

[Doodlebug02]

I don't know. I honestly think the resurrection will be spiritual only.

 

[Squirt]

I don't know. I honestly think the resurrection will be spiritual only.

Okay, would you be willing to explain why, or is this just some kind of a gut feeling?

 

[Endless]

At the end of the day we can only go with what the Bible says - Jesus is the example of what we will be like - since:

Ac 26:23 "that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles."

Jesus raised people from the dead and so how could he be the first to rise from the dead? The answer lies in that he was the first fruit of the resurrection of the dead that we are talking about here - the final resurection so to speak.

1Co 15:20 ¶ But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Those already dead - their time for this resurection is still to come.
So since Jesus is the example of what we will be like when we are resurected it makes sense that we will be like Jesus when he was resurected. This means that he could appear and disappear at will - walls didn't stop him getting into a building, however he was still physical as Thomas could touch him. He still bore the marks of the cross, therefore the similarity of what he was before his death was there. He was also hungry and could eat. What did Jesus say of himself when he arose from the dead?

Lu 24:38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.
41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, "Have you any food here?"
42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.
43 And He took it and ate in their presence.

Personally i can't wait to have a body like this We won't be spirits - but we will be transformed and i'm lookin forward to it!

 

[michel]

I don't know. I honestly think the resurrection will be spiritual only.

That is what I believe in; there would be no need for physical bodies in Paradise. Having said that, when I meditate, and 'talk' to -say- my Parents, I see them the way they choose to show themselves to me. Of course I don't mean that as in "I see my mother standing there".........(points towards a spot in the room). I see her as she was before she died; once or twice, I have said to her "Why don't you look younger ?", and immediately she has.

There is something even stranger; a girl I knew (We were both in our twenties) was killed in a plane crash somewhere of the Australian coast back in 1978 or 9. I often 'talk' to her. Just recently I saw her with a baby in her arms, suckling......Of course, I was rather surprised (That is the 'strange' part of it all), but went on talking to her; for some reason I didn't want to ask her "why" or "how".

It occurred to me later that maybe she had always wanted a child. Perhaps even a Baby had died, and she was comforting it; I do believe that spirits help the recently dead adapt to what has happened......I honestly don't know.

Yikes! I sound about ready for the 'funny farm'..........

 

[Squirt]

That is what I believe in; there would be no need for physical bodies in Paradise.

Well, let's put your need for a physical body aside for just a minute. I'd appreciate hearing your answers to these questions:

1) Do you believe that Jesus Christ was physically resurrected? He pointed out to His Apostles that He had a body of flesh and bones. His body was missing from the tomb and the one He showed them bore its wounds. Was He just playing with their heads, or what?

2) What you you believe the word "resurrection" means? Think about it awhile. Do you believe that it means the bringing back to life of something that was dead? If so, and if you don't believe the body will be resurrected, do you believe that, at death, the spirit dies? When do you believe it is given renewed life?

3) Now, back to your first statement... When you see your wife and kids in Heaven, wouldn't you like to be able to throw your arms around them? Wouldn't you like to be able to kiss your wife again? Or don't you believe they will even be recognizable to you, and that's why you don't need a physical body?

Yikes! I sound about ready for the 'funny farm'..........

Not really. We just disagree, that's all, and I'd like to understand the reasoning behind your beliefs.

 

[joeboonda]

Do I believe in a literal, physical ressurection? I absolutely do. It is a fundamental belief one who would call themselves a Christian should adamantly adhere to. Where is Jesus' body? What does the scripture say? Will we make up our own 'beliefs' and not trust in the Holy Scripture? What of I Cor. 15 and I Thes. 4, where the dead in Christ will rise and have new immortal, incorruptible bodies? I will not go further into it, but that is what the Bible teaches and Christians are to follow its teachings as far as I understand.

 

[Squirt]

Do I believe in a literal, physical ressurection? I absolutely do. It is a fundamental belief one who would call themselves a Christian should adamantly adhere to. Where is Jesus' body? What does the scripture say? Will we make up our own 'beliefs' and not trust in the Holy Scripture? What of I Cor. 15 and I Thes. 4, where the dead in Christ will rise and have new immortal, incorruptible bodies? I will not go further into it, but that is what the Bible teaches and Christians are to follow its teachings as far as I understand.

Well, I'm not going to say that if a person believes himself to be a Christian and does not believe in a literal, physical resurrection, he is not a real Christian. I know people on this forum who fit into this category and I don't believe I'm in a position to say who has the right to call himself a Christian. Two of these individuals have posted so far, to say that they reject the doctrine of a literal, physical resurrection, but so far neither of them has made any effort to explain why. Maybe, if this thread takes off as I'd like to see it do, they'll be back with an explanation for their beliefs.

 

[joeboonda]

10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(King James Bible, Romans)

Here is how to be saved, confess Jesus and believe God raised Him from the dead and you are saved. I don't like to say who is saved or not either, many would say I am not for many reasons, but, I go by the Bible, if you believe in, or trust in Christ's death, his blood to pay for your sin, and his bodily ressurection to prove He did, then you are saved. If you trust in something else, your own goodness, or Christ plus something else, like a church or sacrament, or ritual, or good works, then imo, you may not be saved. Or if one preaches a different Christ than the Bible teaches and you believe in the wrong Christ, you may not be saved. I believe once one trusts Christ he is saved forevermore, praise God, but that is what I believe, and I respect others beliefs and love them and will not condemn them. This is just what I believe from my study of scripture.

 

[lunamoth]

Hi Squirt, I hope you don't mind if I also answer these questions. I think they are nicely framed.

Well, let's put your need for a physical body aside for just a minute. I'd appreciate hearing your answers to these questions:

1) Do you believe that Jesus Christ was physically resurrected? He pointed out to His Apostles that He had a body of flesh and bones. His body was missing from the tomb and the one He showed them bore its wounds. Was He just playing with their heads, or what?

Yes, He was physically resurrected. These events you refer to underscore that we are meant to understand the resurrection as physical, even if it is a different kind of physical than we now experience.

2) What you you believe the word "resurrection" means? Think about it awhile. Do you believe that it means the bringing back to life of something that was dead? If so, and if you don't believe the body will be resurrected, do you believe that, at death, the spirit dies? When do you believe it is given renewed life?

Interesting questions. The resurrection plant grows in arid places and can completely deisscate down to a dormant state. When water is added it rehydrates and starts growing again. So, I don't think it means bringing back to life from death, but returning to life from some other state. I don't think our spirit dies and since time is not something restrictive to God, and presumable to the next life, our resurrection is simultaneous to our mortal death. Thus, perhaps, we gain our resurrection bodies without any "waiting" for the decomposition of our fleshly bodies. So, I think that the resurrection body is made anew in a way totally different from the bodies we have now.

The reason I think our ressurection must be somehow physical is that we are assured to keep our personalities, our loves, our relationships, and these things all can only be expressed from a body, even if it is substantially different from our fleshly body. I guess a metaphor is as if our spirit were light. Light moves through space without leaving a trace, and it is only perceived when it hits something that can absorb or reflect it. Our spirits can exist without a body, but they must reflect via a body to be percepted.

We just disagree, that's all, and I'd like to understand the reasoning behind your beliefs.

Me too.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[lunamoth]

A related question about Jesus' resurrection. Do you think that 1 John 4:2 means that Jesus came in the flesh as God (pre-resurrection) or that Jesus was raised in the flesh (post-resurrection)?

2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

I don't know and I'm just wondering what you all think.

lunamoth

 

[Squirt]

I don't think our spirit dies and since time is not something restrictive to God, and presumable to the next life, our resurrection is simultaneous to our mortal death. Thus, perhaps, we gain our resurrection bodies without any "waiting" for the decomposition of our fleshly bodies. So, I think that the resurrection body is made anew in a way totally different from the bodies we have now.

That's interesting. Let me see if I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying that at the moment of death, resurrection takes place and our spirit enters an immortal and perfected physical body? If this is the case, are you saying that this is not the body that was laid to rest? And what do you see as happening at the Second Coming of Christ, at the time referred to in Revelation as the "first resurrection"? I've always believed that our spirits (which I agree never die) continue to exist apart from our bodies until Christ's return, at which time our bodies will rise from the grave, made perfect and immortal and restored to life by our spirits.

The reason I think our ressurection must be somehow physical is that we are assured to keep our personalities, our loves, our relationships, and these things all can only be expressed from a body, even if it is substantially different from our fleshly body. I guess a metaphor is as if our spirit were light. Light moves through space without leaving a trace, and it is only perceived when it hits something that can absorb or reflect it. Our spirits can exist without a body, but they must reflect via a body to be percepted.

I'll go along with that.

Now, how about some dissenting opinions... Holly, Michel?

 

[Squirt]

A related question about Jesus' resurrection. Do you think that 1 John 4:2 means that Jesus came in the flesh as God (pre-resurrection) or that Jesus was raised in the flesh (post-resurrection)?

I don't know and I'm just wondering what you all think.

I'm not absolutely sure I'm understanding the question, so my answer may not make any sense. If it's way out in left field from what you were looking for, please tell me and I'll have another go at it. I believe that Jesus Christ was God before His mortal life, during His mortal life and after His resurrection. The scriptures teach that He is God and was with God in the beginning. To me, the preposition "with" implies a relationship that can only exist between two parties. So I don't believe the Son is simply a different manifestation of the Father. I do believe that they share the title of God. If I'm understanding your question correctly, no, it is not LDS doctrine that somewhere along the line Jesus Christ became God.

 

[lunamoth]

I'm not absolutely sure I'm understanding the question,

Hi Squirt, I think my question was not clear, and perhaps it is not in good alignment with this thread. It is also not supposed to be directed at LDS or any other beliefs.

So, I'll save it for another thread.

Thank you,
lunamoth

 

[lunamoth]

That's interesting. Let me see if I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying that at the moment of death, resurrection takes place and our spirit enters an immortal and perfected physical body?

First, this is conjecture on my part, and not the teachings of my church. As far as I know the only doctrine the Episcopal church holds regarding resurrection is that we are to understand it as a physical resurrection. As we discussed above, the writers of the Gospel experienced the risen Christ as physical and wrote, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to convey such to us. I don't think, however, that we must understand physical in the exact same sense as we perceive physical in this world, as in a physical body that is limited by the natural laws as we now experinece them. What the resurrection body is 'made of' is not elucidated by doctrine.

So, I think it's possible that our own judgement and resurrection is simultaneous with our worldly death, and that we would simultaneously be reunited with loved ones who were both living or dead at the time of our death. In other words, we would instantly enter a heaven populated by all whom we have ever loved, even if we died before them. This is because I think it's possible that Heaven is outside time. We will also enter the full unveiled experinece of God's love.

If this is the case, are you saying that this is not the body that was laid to rest?

I don't know. It could be the same body transformed. If we leave the time-space continuum then even though we don't observe bodies routinely disappearing from graves or whatever that doesn't rule out that they aren't showing up elsewhere in another dimension. However, I don't lean toward this understanding because as a scientist I just don't see the need, or evidence for, recycling the molecules of our body in this way. I lean toward a transformed body in Heaven existing in another dimension and with properties quite unlike what we can know about in this life. In otherwords, Something More than what we can understand at this tiem.

And what do you see as happening at the Second Coming of Christ, at the time referred to in Revelation as the "first resurrection"?

I think we will be part of this Second coming and Judgment Day at the moment of our death, if it does not occur while we are alive. I'm not sure what you mean by first resurrection. I know some people believe in a first death (when our bodies here die, and we go into a sleeplike state) and a possible second death after the resurrection if we do not enter into Christ's Kingdom. However, I just can't imagine anyone turning down entry into the Kingdom when it is offered at that time. Actually, I don't have a lot of firm ideas about this. I just trust in God that it will all work out OK.

I've always believed that our spirits (which I agree never die) continue to exist apart from our bodies until Christ's return, at which time our bodies will rise from the grave, made perfect and immortal and restored to life by our spirits.

Interesting! So, you think the transformed body is made of the exact same molecules as our present body. I guess I resist this interpretation because I am a biologist.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[sojourner]

First, this is conjecture on my part, and not the teachings of my church. As far as I know the only doctrine the Episcopal church holds regarding resurrection is that we are to understand it as a physical resurrection. As we discussed above, the writers of the Gospel experienced the risen Christ as physical and wrote, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to convey such to us. I don't think, however, that we must understand physical in the exact same sense as we perceive physical in this world, as in a physical body that is limited by the natural laws as we now experinece them. What the resurrection body is 'made of' is not elucidated by doctrine.

So, I think it's possible that our own judgement and resurrection is simultaneous with our worldly death, and that we would simultaneously be reunited with loved ones who were both living or dead at the time of our death. In other words, we would instantly enter a heaven populated by all whom we have ever loved, even if we died before them. This is because I think it's possible that Heaven is outside time. We will also enter the full unveiled experinece of God's love.

I don't know. It could be the same body transformed. If we leave the time-space continuum then even though we don't observe bodies routinely disappearing from graves or whatever that doesn't rule out that they aren't showing up elsewhere in another dimension. However, I don't lean toward this understanding because as a scientist I just don't see the need, or evidence for, recycling the molecules of our body in this way. I lean toward a transformed body in Heaven existing in another dimension and with properties quite unlike what we can know about in this life. In otherwords, Something More than what we can understand at this tiem.
I think we will be part of this Second coming and Judgment Day at the moment of our death, if it does not occur while we are alive. I'm not sure what you mean by first resurrection. I know some people believe in a first death (when our bodies here die, and we go into a sleeplike state) and a possible second death after the resurrection if we do not enter into Christ's Kingdom. However, I just can't imagine anyone turning down entry into the Kingdom when it is offered at that time. Actually, I don't have a lot of firm ideas about this. I just trust in God that it will all work out OK.
Interesting! So, you think the transformed body is made of the exact same molecules as our present body. I guess I resist this interpretation because I am a biologist.

peace,
lunamoth

My understanding of the Episcopal teaching is, since cremation is OK, the body we receive at resurrection will be a new body, and both like, yet unlike our physical body.

 

[SoyLeche]

My understanding of the Episcopal teaching is, since cremation is OK, the body we receive at resurrection will be a new body, and both like, yet unlike our physical body.

Cremation doesn't destroy the body, it converts it into something else - alot like decomposition does. God can convert it back.

Just saying, is all.

 

[lunamoth]

My understanding of the Episcopal teaching is, since cremation is OK, the body we receive at resurrection will be a new body, and both like, yet unlike our physical body.

Thank you sojourner. Much more concisely stated than I put it.

Yes, I can't see how it would make a difference whether cremated or decomposed in the grave. Either way our molecules are broken down and scattered, recyled into new living organisms or spread across the earth. Quite likely that we've shared atoms with other people who have come before us.

peace,
lunamoth