New proseltysing tactic

Jesus sent them out two by two to find deserving ones. He never said make them deserving.

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No one can make anyone "deserving". Searching for the deserving ones is a Christian's job. We are merely the 'planters' and 'waterers'. It is God who makes a seed of truth grow.

"What, then, is A·pol′los? Yes, what is Paul? Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord granted each one. I planted, A·pol′los watered, but God kept making it grow, so that neither is the one who plants anything nor is the one who waters, but God who makes it grow. Now the one who plants and the one who waters are one, but each person will receive his own reward according to his own work. For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field under cultivation, God’s building." (1 Cor 3:5-9)

To believe he said go make disciples is just one interpretation of Matthew 28:19. The making of disciples causes heartache, broken families and even war. How can you believe the Prince of Peace sanctioned that?

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Jesus answers that.....

"Everyone, then, who acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father who is in the heavens. But whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens. Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his soul will lose it, and whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it." (Matt 10:34-39)

If the evangelising work was not important, then why was it a main feature of the ministry of both Jesus and his apostles?

Why did Jesus say that the truth would divide families if it was not to be so? It is the opposers who create the division. Christians were urged to continue to love their unbelieving family members. Peter said they could be "won without a word" by the conduct of their family members who accepted the truth. (1 Pet 3:1, 2)

I personally have a wonderful relationship with my non Witness family members. They are as entitled to their beliefs as I am. Mutual respect and love do not allow personal differences to create problems, unless bigotry rears its ugly head.

He said it. To love and obey him is to know what it means.

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To love and obey the shepherds whom he appointed is also what it means. (Heb 13:17) These are to keep watch over our souls, so without having a global brotherhood with which to meet, (Heb 10:24, 25) and without these shepherds to guide us in the right way, we are demonstrating that we are not members of the Christian congregation.

No Christian can be a one man band.

No one can make anyone "deserving". Searching for the deserving ones is a Christian's job.

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Actions speak louder than words. I know you believe "no one can make anyone deserving" but you do try to make people deserving. What do you study and why? And when anyone who was a Jehovah's Witness disagrees with you, what do you do? You shun them so that they will return for your love. Isn't that called "making" someone repentant ie deserving?

To love and obey the shepherds whom he appointed is also what it means. (Heb 13:17)

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We are to love our neighbor, especially those working hard for the Kingdom of God but OBEY? We are to obey God alone. The word you translate obey means persuade, urge. To urge on does not mean obey. It means be encouraging. How? Invite them for dinner. Compliment them. Visit them. Talk to them.
How about "submission"? This is harder as there is only one occurance of this word in the Greek scriptures. It means yield. Yield means get out of the way. Let them do their job. Do not argue with them. If they are wrong they will be corrected but not by you. That is what it means.

Who told to to obey and be submissive (which means the same though, doesn't it?) Oh ya, the ones you obey told you to obey.

If the evangelising work was not important, then why was it a main feature of the ministry of both Jesus and his apostles?

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Do you know what evangelize means?

What definition are you linking to the word evangelize please?

This list of verses all identify some way with the word "evangelize". There is only one on the list that sparks of the conversion of people. Jesus saying "make" disciples, which he did not say. Please look at the scripture list and tell me if there is another verse other than Matthew 28:19 which says "disciple the nations", that says make disciples.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/evangelize

I am able to share scripture verses that prove Jesus was not for converting people to another religion. Would you like it?

"What, then, is A·pol′los? Yes, what is Paul? Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord granted each one. I planted, A·pol′los watered, but God kept making it grow, so that neither is the one who plants anything nor is the one who waters, but God who makes it grow. Now the one who plants and the one who waters are one, but each person will receive his own reward according to his own work. For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field under cultivation, God’s building." (1 Cor 3:5-9)

It is God who makes the truth grow, not us. Jesus offered the truth to people but he did not force them to believe or to obey. He told us to do the same. (Rom 10:14, 15) No one forces any of us to believe.

Rebelling against duly appointed authority, when it is at odds with our own viewpoint, is a very human trait, so why is it surprising that when humans cannot get their own way, they seek to shoot down the ones they see as standing in the way of getting their own views across?
Just because you may want to believe things "your way", does not necessarily make it God's way. You have an opinion....so do we.

All choices have consequences.....if people have made their choice, they're are welcome to it. But ask yourself why there is a need to continually harp on about the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses? If they are not your "slave", then so be it. Walk away and put it down. Why do you think you can't do that? Have you found a spiritual home that gives you peace? Have you found a substitute body of Christians who believe what you wish to believe? Obviously not or you would not be here constantly harping on about men who have no influence in your life whatsoever.

We will all have our judgment day when Jesus classifies us a either "sheep" or "goats". (There is nothing in between. We are all either one or the other.) If you are happy with your choices...enjoy them. If there is an element of doubt, then that is something you have to deal with. Ask yourself why so many of those who leave JW's hang around Bible forums rubbishing their former brothers and sisters and their governing body? Why have they not formed themselves into one united denomination of ex JW's promoting the love and joy they should have among themselves? Where is their "faithful and discreet slave" feeding them? All I hear is animosity

None of them have a happy positive message in the so called freedom they are supposed to have attained...all they do is tear down...they never have any good news. They just seem to focus on excuses for why they are not doing what Jesus commanded....including to "love your enemies".

Jesus said he would accept those who are "doing the will of The Father"....so what is the will of the Father? (Matt 7:21-23) And who are doing it? Jesus will decide.

JayJayDee said:

"What, then, is A·pol′los? Yes, what is Paul? Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord granted each one. I planted, A·pol′los watered, but God kept making it grow, so that neither is the one who plants anything nor is the one who waters, but God who makes it grow. Now the one who plants and the one who waters are one, but each person will receive his own reward according to his own work. For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field under cultivation, God’s building." (1 Cor 3:5-9)

It is God who makes the truth grow, not us. Jesus offered the truth to people but he did not force them to believe or to obey. He told us to do the same. (Rom 10:14, 15) No one forces any of us to believe.

Rebelling against duly appointed authority, when it is at odds with our own viewpoint, is a very human trait, so why is it surprising that when humans cannot get their own way, they seek to shoot down the ones they see as standing in the way of getting their own views across?
Just because you may want to believe things "your way", does not necessarily make it God's way. You have an opinion....so do we.

All choices have consequences.....if people have made their choice, they're are welcome to it. But ask yourself why there is a need to continually harp on about the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses? If they are not your "slave", then so be it. Walk away and put it down. Why do you think you can't do that? Have you found a spiritual home that gives you peace? Have you found a substitute body of Christians who believe what you wish to believe? Obviously not or you would not be here constantly harping on about men who have no influence in your life whatsoever.

We will all have our judgment day when Jesus classifies us a either "sheep" or "goats". (There is nothing in between. We are all either one or the other.) If you are happy with your choices...enjoy them. If there is an element of doubt, then that is something you have to deal with. Ask yourself why so many of those who leave JW's hang around Bible forums rubbishing their former brothers and sisters and their governing body? Why have they not formed themselves into one united denomination of ex JW's promoting the love and joy they should have among themselves? Where is their "faithful and discreet slave" feeding them? All I hear is animosity

None of them have a happy positive message in the so called freedom they are supposed to have attained...all they do is tear down...they never have any good news. They just seem to focus on excuses for why they are not doing what Jesus commanded....including to "love your enemies".

Jesus said he would accept those who are "doing the will of The Father"....so what is the will of the Father? (Matt 7:21-23) And who are doing it? Jesus will decide.

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Uh OK. I am saying nothing about the governing body. Thay are people too. I am trashing what they are teaching and I am doing it nicer than they are trashing Christendom for THEIR Bible misunderstandings. I do not call them liars. They are being misled. I say they are teaching you lies and I have proved it.

Please "step away from those men".

1 Corinthians 3:5 is not talking about a conversion. It does not say "through whom you believed" something new.

Please share with forum just one post where I trashed the governing body. OK?

Have you trashed me lady?

My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Job 42:5, 1 Cor 3:5 Did Job believe in YHVH before? What do you think?

And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

The definition of evangelize is to try to convert (a group or area) to a different religion. The Bible, Jesus and the apostles are for strengthening belief, not changing it to something else.

savagewind said:

Uh OK. I am saying nothing about the governing body. Thay are people too. I am trashing what they are teaching and I am doing it nicer than they are trashing Christendom for THEIR Bible misunderstandings.

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And they must stop teaching what they receive from the holy spirit and listen to you....Are you the slave now?.....seriously?

Trashing Christendom? What did Jesus say about the religious leaders of his day?
“Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·hen′na?" (Matt 23:33)

I don't believe that we have been that hard on those who have followed in the footsteps of the proud religious system of the Jews in the first century.

John the Baptist also had strong words to say about those same religious leaders....

"You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath?  Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matt 3:7-10)

The axe is again lying at the root of the tree. Babylon the great is about to receive her punishment and all who cling to her will go down with her. (Rev 18:4, 5) Judging from the state of affairs in the world, it won't be long now. Religion is becoming despised as the greatest threat to peace on this planet. This present generation are the most godless there has ever been. When Babylon goes down, there will not be many in the west to mourn her passing.

I do not call them liars. They are being misled. I say they are teaching you lies and I have proved it.

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And who are you? Can it not be said that you yourself are misled?

All you have proved is that you think you know better than the shepherds that Christ appointed. We understand what you are saying and we can read what happened to those who said that kind of thing in the past. Be careful.

Please "step away from those men".

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Why? Would it then make us like those who are lost in a spiritual 'no man's land'? No thanks. I am very happy under the guidance of my brothers. We enjoy a peace and unity that you no longer have apparently.

1 Corinthians 3:5 is not talking about a conversion. It does not say "through whom you believed" something new.

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Read it again. It says "Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord granted each one." These were people who became believers through the preaching of Paul and Apollos. Some were Jews who were already "believers" but not in Christ. Others were pagans who became believers in both. It was not Paul or Apollos who made them believers, it was God by his spirit. The messengers are not the ones who make people believe. It is not we who make disciples...it is God who draws people to his son. (John 6:44)

Please share with forum just one post where I trashed the governing body. OK?

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Read through your own posts...you are obsessed with the governing body and bent on accusing them at every opportunity. I believe we heard you the first time...and the second...and the third.....

I think you need to put it down now.

Have you trashed me lady?

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I don't have to. It's not my job to trash anyone. I am here to tell the truth as I understand it. If it disagrees with you view, then you need to get over it and move on. There are many views expressed here....mine is one, yours is another.

My last post contains the thoughts that need consideration. Not just the bits you chose to address, but all of it.

JayJayDee said:

And they must stop teaching what they receive from the holy spirit and listen to you....Are you the slave now?.....seriously?

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1. be careful what you say about The Holy Spirit. History knows they have changed their mionds about some things. Does The Holy Spirit change it's mind?What? The superior authorities. First they were the world's governing powers of the world then they were Jesus and Jehovah and then they are were the world's governing powers again and now I guess they are just plainly the governing body of JWs. Romans 13:1
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2. I never said they should listen to me. Are they here?

I don't believe that we have been that hard on those who have followed in the footsteps of the proud religious system of the Jews in the first century.

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The Watchtower has pictures of fire balls falling on their heads.

John the Baptist also had strong words to say about those same religious leaders....

"You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath?  Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matt 3:7-10)

The axe is again lying at the root of the tree. Babylon the great is about to receive her punishment and all who cling to her will go down with her. (Rev 18:4, 5) Judging from the state of affairs in the world, it won't be long now. Religion is becoming despised as the greatest threat to peace on this planet. This present generation are the most godless there has ever been. When Babylon goes down, there will not be many in the west to mourn her passing.

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So I don't get yelled at again. Cryptic you say?

And who are you? Can it not be said that you yourself are misled?

All you have proved is that you think you know better than the shepherds that Christ appointed. We understand what you are saying and we can read what happened to those who said that kind of thing in the past. Be careful.

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Am shall continue poraying for you. I din't say I think I know better than the shepherds that Christ appointed. Don't you think if I trusted that they were appointed by Christ I'd be you?

Why? Would it then make us like those who are lost in a spiritual 'no man's land'? No thanks. I am very happy under the guidance of my brothers. We enjoy a peace and unity that you no longer have apparently.

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Is there no man in the land with me? Noah had only three young mean with him. Now love has got cold so I am not surprised.

Read it again. It says "Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord granted each one." These were people who became believers through the preaching of Paul and Apollos. Some were Jews who were already "believers" but not in Christ. Others were pagans who became believers in both. It was not Paul or Apollos who made them believers, it was God by his spirit. The messengers are not the ones who make people believe. It is not we who make disciples...it is God who draws people to his son.

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You mean it is God who draws people to the Watchtower (to protect it)

Read through your own posts...you are obsessed with the governing body and bent on accusing them at every opportunity. I believe we heard you the first time...and the second...and the third.....

I think you need to put it down now.

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Well. Hm. They told Jesus to put it down too. Didn't they?
32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

My last post contains the thoughts that need consideration. Not just the bits you chose to address, but all of it.

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This is crazy talk. You have never "listened" to me once. Why should I address your posts that I do not want to?

I am not much of a profiler but I am confident in the fact they would not listen to me even if I tried to be heard. Maybe if it was one man I might try to communicate what I have, like the prophets of old did and like Ezekiel 3:18 informs us to do. How many leaders have you?
"No one can serve two masters.[if one of them is money] Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."

savagewind said:

Is there no man in the land with me? Noah had only three young men with him. Now love has got cold so I am not surprised.

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There are plenty with you

savagewind said:

I made the discovery that Jesus never said to go make disciples. The foundation of the Jehovah's Witnesses is making disciples. All the Bibles have him commanding it. They have just published a new Bible and it still has Jesus saying go make disciples. Even if they were to become aware of their error I can not see that they would admit it.
Isaiah 29:13
13 Jehovah says: “This people approaches me with their mouth
And they honor me with their lips,
But their heart is far removed from me;
And their fear of me is based on commands of men that they have been taught.

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Awesome scripture Savagewind ! What you present is 100% of the problem with religion. And it seems to me that what Lord Jesus was promoting was shepherding His flock and sharing His teaching. Anyway I agree with you.

There is a big difference to what people like Billy and Franklin Graham do and what people who go to people's homes do. People would come to the Billy Graham crusades at sports arenas or whatever to listen to what Mr. Graham had to say and then make a decision. These crusades were announced on TV, newspapers, etc. When Jesus preached, the people came to Him. I assume that when the Apostles went to towns, the people would also come to them. I don't believe that anyone went to people's homes unless they were asked to, except to look for lodging. This also the purpose of Churches. People know they are there and they are welcome to come and hear the service if they desire to.

I say this because in a lot of cases, people's homes are their sanctuary. Most people don't want strangers to come to their doors. A lot of people don't really mind, however. There are better ways, in my view, to tell people about your religion than to go to their homes.

That's just the way I see it.

Tdidymos said:

In my mind being led directly by Jesus (through holy spirit) and being led by others who are led by Jesus can co-exist in perfect harmony.

If we base our beliefs on the Bible then Christianity involves a reality called congregation/s.
According to the New Testament some people were supposed to take the lead in worship and shepherd Jesus' sheep. And in the first century some men had a responsibility to say the final word on some matters within the Christian organization. Acts chapter 15 gives us a good example.

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Well sir , you and I do not really disagree. And what you have posted i find interesting. What today's Jehovah Witnesses are up against is the negative affect that the past Jehovah Witnesses had on the folks that they were witnessing to. And the over coming of this handicap is going to be a challenge for today's witnesses. Not that the past Jehovah Witnesses were any differnt than the Christians of their day. Christianity in general has always been pushy, judgmental, and condeming, which is why all of Christianity has handicaps that will have to be over come if they wish to share Lord Jesus with non Christian others.

"The meek shall inherit the Earth." For the most part everybody else is shooting for a place in Heaven . For those that seek a place in Earthly paradise ruled by Lord Jesus as a reward for their service to the Father one would think that the scripture concerning the "meek inheriting the Earth" a major clue as to how they would present themselves as the Father's representitivies on Earth durring the times of trials and tribulations. The concept of "meek" would also include a group that considers themself a family that is in service to the Father. Not just a social personality presentation to be used when witnessing. Yes Jehovah Witnesses are just human/people, but they are also people that listen to their leaders. And the Watchtower publishment has "zip" (not any) for meekness as a message. Yes, the Awake is different with a more loving and family oriented message. But, the Watchtower is considered the dominant publishment. It is and always has been the major force in galvanizing the troops . The main reason that I have never considered joining the Jehovah Witness movement (for over thirty years now) is the Watchtower publishment. And I guess that if I am honest, I am also shooting for a place in Heaven even though that place may be the "least" in Heaven. Just some thoughts sir .

ChristineES said:

There is a big difference to what people like Billy and Franklin Graham do and what people who go to people's homes do. People would come to the Billy Graham crusades at sports arenas or whatever to listen to what Mr. Graham had to say and then make a decision. These crusades were announced on TV, newspapers, etc. When Jesus preached, the people came to Him. I assume that when the Apostles went to towns, the people would also come to them. I don't believe that anyone went to people's homes unless they were asked to, except to look for lodging. This also the purpose of Churches. People know they are there and they are welcome to come and hear the service if they desire to.

I say this because in a lot of cases, people's homes are their sanctuary. Most people don't want strangers to come to their doors. A lot of people don't really mind, however. There are better ways, in my view, to tell people about your religion than to go to their homes.

That's just the way I see it.

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Thanks for some valid points. What I understand from the Bible is that Jesus followers in the first century used both tactics. People came to them and they went to people's homes.

Based on my personal experience there are actually relatively many who appreciate the visits of Jehovah's Witnesses. In some countries even majority appreciates our work and in many countries majority is indifferent or hostile. But some do enjoy discussing with us about the Bible and spirituality and some like to read our publications. These are the people we're seeking. Those who are interested. It's service for those who are interested.

We receive a thorough training (it's a constant training program, week by week) for door to door work and different forms of witnessing. Things like being loving, friendly, tactful and polite despite how the people react to us are emphasized very much. Ofcourse every individual Witness succeeds differently in showing these qualities. But the bottom line is that we're trying our best to follow scriptural guidelines and do it in as positive as possible way. I do understand that door to door work is a bit aggressive method by nature. But if done the right way most of the people can handle it and not get too upset about it.

Vinayaka said:

Never. In fact we'd be more likely to tell people to go study their own religion. If someone asks, we'll answer as best we can.

We support all legitimate peace-loving faiths. I invited the Mormon missionaries next door over for a meal. That was my invitation, and my choice. We had a great time sharing our understanding, and it went both ways.

I will always object to unwelcome uninvited aggressive deceptive proselytising. I view it as assault, an act of violence. It destroys families, and creates disharmony. You leave me alone, and I'll leave you alone.

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I pretty much agree Vinyaka. If some of Jehovah's Witnesses is using aggressive and deceptive methods then he isn't following the guidelines we are taught to follow. The point of our door to door work is to seek those who are really interested to discuss or study the Bible with us. Others we leave alone. Altough our work is organized really really well sometimes mistakes happen because we don't have any official database of the people we meet (I think it would be illegal in many countries), except some personal notes. So sometimes some Witness accidently goes to someone on a so called "do not call" -list. We endeavor to be as tactful, respectful and positive as possible. But we're just humans

Tdidymos said:

So sometimes some Witness accidently goes to someone on a so called "do not call" -list. We endeavor to be as tactful, respectful and positive as possible. But we're just humans

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Unfortunately, that has not been my experience.

But that's not really the point here. I also object to folks doing it at all, and would support a government ban on it.

Do you think that most people are unable to read a phone book, or find a local Kingdom hall on their own volition? Trust me, people really aren't that dumb that they couldn't find you if they were interested.

savagewind said:

The definition of evangelize is to try to convert (a group or area) to a different religion. The Bible, Jesus and the apostles are for strengthening belief, not changing it to something else.

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Do you mean that Jesus and the apostless didn't favor any particular religious teaching or practice? That they were strenghtening all beliefs equally? Does the Bible, Jesus and the apostles strengthen the faith of Satan worshipers?