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Everything of Value in Religion....

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member


"The link between belief and behavior raises the stakes considerably. Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense. This is what the United States attempted in Afghanistan, and it is what we and other Western powers are bound to attempt, at an even greater cost to ourselves and to innocents abroad, elsewhere in the Muslim world. We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas." - Sam Harris The End of Faith pp. 52-53

Spoken like the true Neo-Con that he is.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
"The link between belief and behavior raises the stakes considerably. Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense. This is what the United States attempted in Afghanistan, and it is what we and other Western powers are bound to attempt, at an even greater cost to ourselves and to innocents abroad, elsewhere in the Muslim world. We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas." - Sam Harris The End of Faith pp. 52-53

So, to your mind, that means he "...advocates the murder and torture of Muslims just because he believes that Islam is inherently belligerent and that Muslims are incapable of civilized discourse"?
 

technomage

Finding my own way

Nevertheless, I believe that there are extreme situations in which practices like “water-boarding” may not only be ethically justifiable, but ethically necessary—especially where getting information from a known terrorist seems likely to save the lives of thousands (or even millions) of innocent people. To argue that torture may sometimes be ethically justified is not to argue that it should ever be legal (crimes like trespassing or theft may sometimes be ethical, while we all have an interest in keeping them illegal).
Source: Why I’d Rather Not Speak About Torture : : Sam Harris

As you can see, the statement is quite a bit more nuanced than some will acknowledge. Nonetheless, I disagree with Mr Harris on several issues, this not the least.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
So, to your mind, that means he "...advocates the murder and torture of Muslims just because he believes that Islam is inherently belligerent and that Muslims are incapable of civilized discourse"?



"Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them"

What part of that do you not understand?

Here I will repeat it again:

Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them

and again:

Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them

He is saying that maybe we should just murder Muslims because he believes Islam is dangerous. This is a guy who once play with the idea of the Mecca Option, just like Coulter did.

Go ask some of the Muslims on this board how they feel about this quote. I dare you.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Gone
Premium Member
"The link between belief and behavior raises the stakes considerably. Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense. This is what the United States attempted in Afghanistan, and it is what we and other Western powers are bound to attempt, at an even greater cost to ourselves and to innocents abroad, elsewhere in the Muslim world. We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas." - Sam Harris The End of Faith pp. 52-53

Spoken like the true Neo-Con that he is.

I think it's kinda obvious that he's talking about violent extremist Muslims like the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. Sure, I think it's ethical to kill them. I don't see how you're getting that he supports killing all Muslims.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
I think it's kinda obvious that he's talking about violent extremist Muslims like the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. Sure, I think it's ethical to kill them. I don't see how you're getting that he supports killing all Muslims.

Those are his views of Islam and Muslims period. Did you even read the book?


"I consider Islam to be especially belligerent and inimical to the norms of civil discourse" - Sam Harris

He is not saying, some or parts of Islam is belligerent...he is saying Islam is belligerent.

Sam Harris does not believe in religious moderates, in fact he has said all religious moderates are just as bad as religious extremist because they (the religious moderates) enable the extremist.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Those are his views of Islam and Muslims period. Did you even read the book?

"I consider Islam to be especially belligerent and inimical to the norms of civil discourse" - Sam Harris

He is not saying, some or parts of Islam is belligerent...he is saying Islam is belligerent.

Sam Harris does not believe in religious moderates, in fact he has said all religious moderates are just as bad as religious extremist because they (the religious moderates) enable the extremist.
Harris has a follow up statement on that quote in his "Response to Controversy" article where he addresses the handful of his statements that get taken out of context or exaggerated the most often. Here's the link.

Harris said:
The following passage seems to have been selectively quoted, and misconstrued, more than any other I have written:

"The link between belief and behavior raises the stakes considerably. Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense. This is what the United States attempted in Afghanistan, and it is what we and other Western powers are bound to attempt, at an even greater cost to ourselves and to innocents abroad, elsewhere in the Muslim world. We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas."

This paragraph appears after a long discussion of the role that belief plays in governing human behavior, and it should be read in that context. Some critics have interpreted the second sentence of this passage to mean that I advocate simply killing religious people for their beliefs. Granted, I made the job of misinterpreting me easier than it might have been, but such a reading remains a frank distortion of my views. To someone reading the passage in context, it should be clear that I am discussing the link between belief and behavior. The fact that belief determines behavior is what makes certain beliefs so dangerous.

When one asks why it would be ethical to drop a bomb on Ayman al-Zawahiri, the current leader of al Qaeda, the answer cannot be, “Because he killed so many people in the past.” To my knowledge, the man hasn’t killed anyone personally. However, he is likely to get a lot of innocent people killed because of what he and his followers believe about jihad, martyrdom, the ascendancy of Islam, etc. A willingness to take preventative action against a dangerous enemy is compatible with being against the death penalty (which I am). Whenever we can capture and imprison jihadists, we should. But in many cases this is either impossible or too risky. Would it have been better if we had captured Osama bin Laden? In my view, yes. Do I think the members of Seal Team Six should have assumed any added risk to bring him back alive? Absolutely not.

In other words, he's talking about taking action on people that have a conspiracy to commit murder, not Muslims in general, as saint frankenstein correctly interpreted it.

The ethics of that are controversial as it is, so we don't need to add in this idea that he is in favor of killing Muslims in general.
 

yoda89

On Xtended Vacation
“Everything of value that people get from religion can be had more honestly, without presuming anything on insufficient evidence. The rest is self-deception, set to music.”

- Sam Harris

Do you think Harris has a point? Why or why not?

Harris has a point in this quote. If I am understanding correctly. That you can get things that you gain from religion from other means. That's a pretty true statement.

Although there are a few things that you cannot. Perhaps you wish to believe in something else that requires faith. For example can you believe you will see your dead grandfather again without religion or spirituality? Probably not unless you believe in zombies or some others odd thing. Therefore this is arguably self deception. You may be able to see them again. But in our current understanding we cannot not. It requires blind faith to believe so.

Although, his voice does not carry message to everybody obviously. One because it is pretty harsh criticism. But it infuriates those unwilling to admit they do not know for sure. Others honestly admit that it is only belief.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
“Everything of value that people get from religion can be had more honestly, without presuming anything on insufficient evidence. The rest is self-deception, set to music.”

- Sam Harris

Do you think Harris has a point? Why or why not?

I disagree with him. You can't get anything you get from religion without religion (or more "honestly" as he puts it). Religion structures spirit; neither psychology or physics can structure spirit.

In the same way you can't use pure psychology to become physically fit, and you can't use pure physics to become psychologically well. They can indirectly, but they both still require their relevant fields.
 

yoda89

On Xtended Vacation
"The link between belief and behavior raises the stakes considerably. Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense. This is what the United States attempted in Afghanistan, and it is what we and other Western powers are bound to attempt, at an even greater cost to ourselves and to innocents abroad, elsewhere in the Muslim world. We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas." - Sam Harris The End of Faith pp. 52-53

Spoken like the true Neo-Con that he is.

Tell me is he a proponent of going out and killing these people? Does he actually say lets go kill these people? No he says to do so in self defense. I'm not a huge fan of someone coming from overseas and flying planes into buildings. If they mind their own business great. But many religions are proponents of such acts. Some people go against these actions and are of the same faith. But until the attacks and threats cease it is perfectly fine to defend ourselves from those of the faith who are extremists. It is also perfectly fine to become harsh critics those who allow such acts. Such as the catholic church and those believers who looked away for a very long time about the child molestations.

Last time I checked he was not building an army to kill all Muslims. I think you have a bone with the guy because he simply is calling some people idiots most of the time. Calling someone an idiot isn't the same as organizing a military and killing others.
 
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steeltoes

Junior member
Sam Harris does not believe in religious moderates, in fact he has said all religious moderates are just as bad as religious extremist because they (the religious moderates) enable the extremist.

It's wrong to torture and or kill anyone, but I do agree with Harris that moderates enable extremists.
 
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