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Everything of Value in Religion....
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
No. Sure, you can DO the same things and FEEL the same things, but we theists believe in God. Part of my religion is a belief in God.
technomage
Finding my own way
Harris's point is only valid insofar as one accepts his preconception that "No Gods exist." Take away that preconception, and his statement is rhetoric without substance.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
Well that's Harris' forte isn't it?
I think his insinuation that all religion is "dishonest" game of "self-deception" grounded in "insufficient evidence" is so fundamentally flawed that I can't even take his comment seriously.
I think the phrase "of value" in his comment renders the entire statement almost entirely subjective.
Given counter-examples, he could dismiss them as not being of value, making what he said only true as far as he defines it to be true.
I don't tend to agree with such broad statements.
I don't think the religious experience of all people can be accurately described as dishonesty (which seems to be suggested), and i'm not sure (though on that end don't necessarily disagree) that everything that can be perceived to be of value in religion can be obtained elsewhere, and with the specific criteria he outlined.
It might be, but that depends on just what value are we talking about.
misanthropic_clown
Active Member
I think he defines his own parameters for honesty when he says "without presuming something on insufficient evidence". So, at least to my interpretation, his statement is arguing that there are more immediate and more self-evident reasons for pursuing the "things of value" in life than the reasons provided by religion. And in that sense I agree.
Just as ChristineES says she gives to the poor as she cares for them, and I presume she would consider belief in God a secondary motivation for such action (?). This would seem to be his point.
Just as ChristineES says she gives to the poor as she cares for them, and I presume she would consider belief in God a secondary motivation for such action (?). This would seem to be his point.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
Harris is a leading figure in the New Atheist movement. He is the one who believes that it is ok to torture and murder Muslims because he believes that Islam is by nature belligerent and uncivilized.
As you can see, see he a really great guy. A true prophet of peace and civilized discourse.
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
Really? I'm outraged.
Well, I'll be outraged if you can quote him saying that it's OK to torture and murder Muslims.
No, I can't see. Could you please post the quotes?
I've never read him on the topic of torture, myself, but I have heard from usually reliable sources that he does indeed advocate it for some reason or reasons I'm unaware of. As for the notion that he only advocates torture for Muslims, and then only because they are all and everyone of them in his view barbaric, etc, I would take that with a grain of salt. I've never heard from anyone besides CC that he advocates murdering Muslims.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
"I believe that there are extreme situations in which practices like "water-boarding" may not only be ethically justifiable, but ethically necessary"
Oh really?
I think Sam Harris may not have any idea what it means to be ethical.
I disagree with Harris' take on torture. I don't think torture is ever justified. But you also happen to be cherry-picking.
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I haven't taken it to the bank yet.
Actually, I'm happy to advocate torture under some circumstances. No problem. All moral people would have to advocate torture under some circumstances.
I'll be so bold as to declare that it's absolutely false. Just another insult against the atheists, with no basis in anything Harris actually said. (Though I've never read a word he's written, at least so far as I know, and I would be happy for Cynthia to attempt to post an actual quote.)
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
Not really. I have actually read The End of Faith. It is nothing but a filthy piece of hate-mongering, a near racist screed if there ever was one. Believe me I have quite the file on our little friend Sam Harris here. He advocates the murder and torture of Muslims just because he believes that Islam is inherently belligerent and that Muslims are incapable of civilized discourse. He is calling million of people barbaric just because they are followers of Islam.
Quotes?
I agree with the statement. I dont think its saying religion is dishonest. It means that faith can be more honest without resorting to self deception. That would go for any sort of truth. The insufficient evidence part would be debatable to the individual so it I would be hard to determine whether or not it is self deception.