Can God create a rock so big...

God could do it if he wanted to, but to do so he would then need to limit his own power after he had created the rock and therefore no longer be all powerful. (if he can do anything he could limit his own power)
So its possible for him to do it but i see no reason why he would want to.

if god could do it because he isnt bound by the laws of logic. then he should be able to creat a world without evil and with free will, no mater how logicly inposible it is. so if he isnt confind by logic he mustnt be all loving

well, though it cannot be defined that how heavy that rock should be, since there is no more than unlimited. It is seems logically impossible for existence of such a rock, because what we compare is a limitless power. A paradox!
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/billramey/omni.htm

What about if he can annihilate himself?
Another Paradox???

No. If God were to do so, then He himself would change in order for it to happen (ie alter his power.) and that is unbiblical. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. There are lots of things God cannot do. Example: God cannot sin, because sin is everything that is against God.

God is God. Human is Human.

Can He create a stone He can't lift?

No.

"So He isn't all that powerful?"

That's not what I mean.

God is infinitely strong. In order for there to be something He can't lift, that something would have to be infinitely immoveable, or heavy. However this creates two infinities, which is impossible because God is eternal and there is only one God, and also creates a statement that can't exist.

So the question "Can God create a stone He cannot lift?" is an impossibility.

Another point: God created the laws of weight and "lift." Therefore, He can break the rules.

Another point: Why does someone want to lift something heavy? To improve their skills. However God is perfect and doesn't need improvement.

Ahh...(sigh) the paradox of the stone. Many very strong arguments come to mind, but I feel like going with the simplistic one first. One cannot prove infinity. Given no size for measurement, tell me what the biggest number in existense is and I will pray for God to create it...If you are correct.

I haven't heard that one since I was in elementary school.

Assuming that God is omnipotent and can move any rock, what the question means is, Can God do something that's logically impossible? And the answer is, No, he can't. Or as Paracelsus put it, "God can make a donkey with three tails, but not a triangle with four sides."

if god is bound by logic then i would say he could do about as much as u and me. and surly god does ilogican things all the time. like making somthing out of nothing, making time go backwards (though that could be argued as laws of physics).i think the most ilogical thing about god is that no one created him so he must have eather created himself or came out of noware. ultamatly saying god is bound by logic means he cant do everything

God making something out of nothing isn't really "nothing" is it? Minimally it's made of his will.

Though the Bible really doesn't have him doing that. The closest to "something from nothing" is light being made by his words.

"will"? sorry can you exsplain. well didnt he made the univers from nothing (i thought that was the genral view), if he didnt make whatever the unvers is made from then who did. even if he didnt make whatever we are made of then he must have made forces to rearange whatever we are made of. he did make time go backwards to prove that he was allmighty to someone, somthing about the shadow of a piller moving backwards 5 minits. the bible dosnt talk about where god came from but whatover options are there if he wasnt made by sombody (i supose theres the argument he could have always been there but isnt that just as ilogical). though i admit i did just use logic to come o an ilogical conclution. but my point was god seems to do loads of miracls that not confined within logical

Bangbang said:

.............that he can not lift it?

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Ushta

Of course not!:tsk: That is why Christian and Islamic theology are wrong, in this department. God is not omnipotent. Indeed, Jesus even says so. I can't give the verse off the top of my head but there is a passage where Jesus is describing the things God can do and he says at the end; God cannot deny himself. In other words if he cannot deny himself he lacks the power to deny himself and is thus not Omnipotent.

Zarathushtra clearly states that the Most Wise is Most powerful but never claims he is Omnipotent.:bounce

Ushta
Ashai

Steve said:

God could do it if he wanted to, but to do so he would then need to limit his own power after he had created the rock and therefore no longer be all powerful. (if he can do anything he could limit his own power)
So its possible for him to do it but i see no reason why he would want to.

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Ushta Steve

The moment god has a limit to his power, even a self imposed one, he stops being all powerful. But, it puzzles me that Christians accept the theology that God is all powerful, after all, didn't Jesus himself say that god cannot deny himself

If God cannot deny himself then he lacks that power and cannot be all powerful

Ushta te
Ashai

ashai said:

Ushta

Of course not!:tsk: That is why Christian and Islamic theology are wrong, in this department. God is not omnipotent. Indeed, Jesus even says so. I can't give the verse off the top of my head but there is a passage where Jesus is describing the things God can do and he says at the end; God cannot deny himself. In other words if he cannot deny himself he lacks the power to deny himself and is thus not Omnipotent.

Zarathushtra clearly states that the Most Wise is Most powerful but never claims he is Omnipotent.:bounce

Ushta
Ashai

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Well, I couldn't remember any verse from Holy Quran for his clear omnipotence. Does anyone know any clear Quranic verse which declares Allah as an omnipotent Supreme Being, more specifically as moving out of natural law? I couldn't find a rational explanation, for the understanding of "omnipotence" actually, for the moment.

The opening chapter of Quran, fatiha the first chapter, which is considred as a miniatur Quran, and second chapter describe who Allah is, in the starting verses of Quranic teachings:

[1:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful
[1:2] All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:3] The Gracious, the Merciful,
[1:4] Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:5] Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
[1:6] Guide us in the right path,
[1:7] The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.

Second Chapter:
[2:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[2:2] Alif, Lam, Mim. (many authorities understand these letters as “I am Allah”)
[2:3] This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
[2:4] Who believe in the unseen and observe prayer and spend out of what We have provided for them
[2:5] And who believe in that which has been revealed to thee and that which was revealed before thee and they have firm faith in the hereafter.
[2:6] It is they who follow the guidance from their Lord and it is they who shall prosper.
[2:7] Those who have disbelieved - it being alike to them whether thou warn them or warn them not - they will not believe.
[2:8] Allah has set a seal on their hearts and their ears, and over their eyes is a covering; and for them is a grievous chastisement.
[2:9] And of the people there are some who say, 'We believe in Allah, and the Last Day;' while they are not believers at all.
[2:10] They would deceive Allah and those who believe, but they deceive none but themselves; only they perceive it not.

JerryL said:

God making something out of nothing isn't really "nothing" is it? Minimally it's made of his will.

Though the Bible really doesn't have him doing that. The closest to "something from nothing" is light being made by his words.

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Gosh, Jerry! We AGREE on something! :highfive:

"He, in truth, hath, throughout eternity, been one in His Essence, one in His attributes, one in His works. Any and every comparison is applicable only to His creatures, and all conceptions of association are conceptions that belong solely to those that serve Him. Immeasurably exalted is His Essence above the descriptions of His creatures. He, alone, occupieth the Seat of transcendent majesty, of supreme and inaccessible glory. The birds of men's hearts, however high they soar, can never hope to attain the heights of His unknowable Essence. It is He Who hath called into being the whole of creation, Who hath caused every created thing to spring forth at His behest. Shall, then, the thing that was born by virtue of the word which His Pen hath revealed, and which the finger of His Will hath directed, be regarded as partner with Him, or an embodiment of His Self? Far be it from His glory that human pen or tongue should hint at His mystery, or that human heart conceive His Essence. All else besides Him stand poor and desolate at His door, all are powerless before the greatness of His might, all are but slaves in His Kingdom. He is rich enough to dispense with all creatures."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 193)

Regards,
Scott

Bangbang said:

If a god is omnipotent and a good god and cares about humans then he should wake up, open his eyes,open his ears,and get off his lazy butt and do something for the humans Thats what I am saying.

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maybe he is but some dont want to see it
Not what enters into [his] mouth defiles a man; but it is what proceeds out of [his] mouth that defiles a man matthew 15;11

Bangbang said:

Can God create a rock so big...that he can not lift it?

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This question always annoys me. It shows such unimaginative thinking from the person who asks it.

Just about every form of theist or deist believes that god created the earth, a fairly modest-sized rock.

Using the earth as an example, which way do you move earth to "lift" it? Toward the sun? Away from the sun? Along its orbit? Reverse its orbit? Perpendicular to its orbit?

The biggest limitation in this stupid question has nothing to do with god. It's a limitation on the language used to express it.

If people can't even understand simple words used to describe the world around them, why do they assume they should be able to grasp infinite concepts like an omnipotent god?

Things God cannot do;


1. It is impossible for God to lie.

2.Can God make a rock so big that even he can’t lift it? If he can’t lift it then he is not all powerful. Then the rock has become more powerful than God and whatever is more powerful than God is God.

3.Can God stop being God or stop existing? The nature of God is infinite meaning no end.

4. He is not free to act contrary to his nature that is permanent.

5.God cannot sin, Holiness is part of his intrinsic nature, He cannot do otherwise.

6.God cannot learn anything new.

7.God cannot answer every prayer you want but only those that are in accordance to His will being done on earth.

From http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo2.htm

brooksie said:

surly god does ilogican things all the time. like making somthing out of nothing, making time go backwards (though that could be argued as laws of physics).

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I didn't know he did things like that at all, much less all the time. And while they would certainly be remarkable and surprising, I don't see how they're logically impossible.