Would Christianity Survive without the filter of a Church?

rusra02 · Mar 7, 2014

samaelrocks said:
Rusra02, you are assuming everyone decides to follow a Christian doctrine (which one?) globally making everyone the same. Of course, if everyone was the same and like minded regardless of what religion you choose, there will be world peace. No debate there. That could mean everyone practices the tenants of Satanism. Same thing. There would be peace if everyone followed Satanism.

Building on your comment. What do you mean when you say "truly follow the Bible? I need to understand how you believe in God. Do you believe Jesus is God? Do you believe in a Trinity? Do you believe Jesus and God are two separate entities? That makes a difference in how you view or read the Bible.

For example, if you believe that Jesus is God, you'd have to also believe then that the Laws and cruelty in the Old Testament were commanded by Jesus. If not, then you can get a by on the Old Testament and talk about how Jesus returned to save man kind from God's wrath and the Bible's idea of sin.

If there is one true God, and I believe there is only one, it stands to reason there is but "one faith". (Ephesians 4:4-6) I do not believe the Bible teaches that God is a trinity. Rather, I believe Jehovah is the true God, and Jesus Christ is his Son. (John 17:3) What laws mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures do you view as cruel or unjust?

samaelrocks · Mar 7, 2014

Fast forward to right now. If the church on faith said, "let's close our doors and stop preaching the gospel for 1 year. During that year, we will only promote the reading of the Bible to see if people remained with the church we we opened our doors again."

If people actually read the Bible from start to finish, you may find yourself with a lot more atheists whom would not return.

My opinion.

technomage · Mar 7, 2014

samaelrocks said:
When the Catholic church owned the religion in 1000 AD est. they had called owning any translation of the Old or New testaments heresy.

That's not quite correct. What was banned (in 1199) was _unauthorized_ translation, partly in response to the Cathar and Waldensian heresies. Authorized translations were certainly permitted. Now, like any book at that time, translated versions of the Bible were quite expensive: authorized or not, buying a book of that length was rather like buying a car. You If you were rich, could get a bargain basement book. If you were _really_ rich, you could get a fancy book. And if you were super rich, you could get a top-shelf book, with illuminations and gold script and all the really neat stuff.

This has me considering that if the Dark Ages were really the enlightened age of free thought and unfiltered indoctrination, Christianity would be no more than a philosophy.

You have a radically distorted understanding of history: it's not an uncommon understanding in Western education, but it's not accurate. We can, if you like, start a different thread discussing history ... or we can leave that part of the discussion as it stands. But as things stand, your arguments are (because of the historical inaccuracies) "not even wrong."

samaelrocks · Mar 7, 2014

rusra02 said:
What laws mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures do you view as cruel or unjust?

Exodus 21:2-6 Acknowledging and allowing slavery.

Exodus 31:15 Death for working on the Sabbath.

Noah's flood was cruel and unjust.

Commanding Joshua to sack Jericho and kill every man, woman and child, presumably because the inhabitants worshiped Moloch.

Jesus stating that marrying a divorced woman is the same as adultery if she divorces for reasons other than... adultery.

The story of Job and God making a bet with the Devil to harm Job just to show that Job would remain faithful... even though God and the Devil already knew what would happen.

God telling Abraham to sacrifice his son. And right before Abraham was about to kill his son (which is insane in itself) God stops him.

The whole idea that humans would be punished by a God for doing exactly what humans were created to do by God.

The whole idea that God made a mistake by allowing the Devil to even exist presumably knowing the suffering that would become from that mistake.

Those are the ideas and laws that make no sense nor would work in a civilized culture. I define civilized here by us having an understanding of human nature, suffering, and human rights.

samaelrocks · Mar 7, 2014

technomage said:
You have a radically distorted understanding of history: it's not an uncommon understanding in Western education, but it's not accurate. We can, if you like, start a different thread discussing history ... or we can leave that part of the discussion as it stands. But as things stand, your arguments are (because of the historical inaccuracies) "not even wrong."

I'm not going into a micro level of detail to make a point so we can debate who's historical knowledge is the best. Fact is, the Church leadership in Europe right before and after 1000 AD DID ban public ownership of the Bible, period. Of course there were exceptions. It was political. But to say it didn't happen is silly.

Back to the point of this thread. If people were NOT indoctrinated and did NOT have a church head to filter the Bible from the beginning, do you or do you not think that Christianity would have survived this long? My opinion is that it would not.

technomage · Mar 7, 2014

samaelrocks said:
Fact is, the Church leadership in Europe right before and after 1000 AD DID ban public ownership of the Bible, period.

You are incorrect. The Catholic Church has _never_ banned public ownership of the Bible. This error, and similar errors, makes for distortions in your overall argument.

Back to the point of this thread. If people were NOT indoctrinated and did NOT have a church head to filter the Bible from the beginning, do you or do you not think that Christianity would have survived this long? My opinion is that it would not.

Certainly not in its current form. It is impossible to predict whether or not Christianity would have completely disappeared, or if it would be a collection of small, scattered religious groups, or if it would be a curious footnote in historical books. But the cooperation of the secular political state played a far more important roll in _developing_ the centrality of what would become the Roman Catholic Church.

samaelrocks · Mar 7, 2014

technomage said:
You are incorrect. The Catholic Church has _never_ banned public ownership of the Bible. This error, and similar errors, makes for distortions in your overall argument.

Whatever you say. However, I recommend you do some research. This is not a new accusation of early Catholic leadership. I'm surprised how certain you are that this never happened.

As soon as I hit 15 posts, I can post the sources to some info on this subject including the associated press.

technomage · Mar 7, 2014

samaelrocks said:
Whatever you say. However, I recommend you do some research. This is not a new accusation of early Catholic leadership. I'm surprised how certain you are that this never happened.

As soon as I hit 15 posts, I can post the sources to some info on this subject including the associated press.

I grew up in a Southern Baptist household. Trust me that I have done plenty of research on the topic. However, I await your evidence links at your convenience.

LuisDantas · Mar 7, 2014

columbus said:
I believe Jesus was a religious Jew. For some reason religious people tend to hate heresy more than just another religion. Polytheistic monotheism based on Judaism would have to be up there in terms of what Jesus would hate.

Doubtless a religious Jew could best explain.

Tom

Heresies are hated because they offer neither the security of being "some of our people" nor that of being "foreigners" that one does not need to take into consideration.

For those who rely on homogeneity of belief to attain a sense of security, they can be quite scary.

samaelrocks · Mar 7, 2014

technomage said:
I grew up in a Southern Baptist household. Trust me that I have done plenty of research on the topic.

As did I. Mother has played the organ and piano for churches in the south starting at the age of 12. Also played weddings, funerals and worked as a music director for 3 decades before retiring. Father was a minister. They met in the Seminary. I'm pretty well versed on the topic as well.

samaelrocks · Mar 7, 2014

LuisDantas said:
For those who rely on homogeneity of belief to attain a sense of security, they can be quite scary.

Very well stated. In my neck of the woods, we call these folks hard right Christians, AKA, Tea Party voters.

samaelrocks · Mar 7, 2014

Catholics banned public ownership of the Bible. Presumably so that peasants could not interpret on their own.

Vatican Reveals Bible Was Once Banned Book

Why Popes banned the Bible

samaelrocks · Mar 7, 2014

Some more info on Catholics banning the Bible.

Bible possession once banned by the Catholic Church!

Sources are within that link that can be reviewed but a good collection.

LuisDantas · Mar 7, 2014

Wasn't part of the reform of Luther his insistence that people should have the means to read the Bible directly?

technomage · Mar 7, 2014

You have two extremely biased sources, the second being blatantly dishonest. Better sources of information do exist such as the online index.

Now, if you search through that index, you will indeed see the Bible listed as banned, but the link explains the entry: "translations of the Bible in the vernacular were permitted only if approved by the Holy See." However, it must be pointed out that Vulgate editions were available, could be puchased by anyone (again, books were expensive, so you had to be fairly wealthy), and could even be consulted in the churches if you could read.

technomage · Mar 7, 2014

LuisDantas said:
Wasn't part of the reform of Luther his insistence that people should have the means to read the Bible directly?

Yup. By the time Luther came about, however, knowledge of Latin (and therefore ability to read the Vulgate) had dropped in Europe. There was demand for vernacular translations that were not being met quickly enough by the Church, and the Church was very disapproving of non-authorized translations.

fantome profane · Mar 7, 2014

LuisDantas said:
Why would Jesus much care about trinitarianism? In fact, why does anyone? In practice it amounts to little (if anything) more than having a couple of fancy names for God.

If people decided that one of those names for "God" was "LuisDantas" you might have some strong feelings about that. I won't try to guess what those feelings would be, but I think you would have feelings about it. I think Jesus would have strong feelings about trinitarianism.

Saint Frankenstein · Mar 7, 2014

Yes, Christianity would've survived without the institutionalization of it. Perhaps ancient polytheistic faiths wouldn't have been persecuted out of existence or driven underground, then. The world would probably be very different.

LuisDantas · Mar 7, 2014

fantôme profane;3685925 said:
If people decided that one of those names for "God" was "LuisDantas" you might have some strong feelings about that. I won't try to guess what those feelings would be, but I think you would have feelings about it. I think Jesus would have strong feelings about trinitarianism.

That would make my face that more weirder, I suppose.

rusra02 · Mar 8, 2014

samaelrocks said:
Exodus 21:2-6 Acknowledging and allowing slavery.

Exodus 31:15 Death for working on the Sabbath.

Noah's flood was cruel and unjust.

Commanding Joshua to sack Jericho and kill every man, woman and child, presumably because the inhabitants worshiped Moloch.

Jesus stating that marrying a divorced woman is the same as adultery if she divorces for reasons other than... adultery.

The story of Job and God making a bet with the Devil to harm Job just to show that Job would remain faithful... even though God and the Devil already knew what would happen.

God telling Abraham to sacrifice his son. And right before Abraham was about to kill his son (which is insane in itself) God stops him.

The whole idea that humans would be punished by a God for doing exactly what humans were created to do by God.

The whole idea that God made a mistake by allowing the Devil to even exist presumably knowing the suffering that would become from that mistake.

Those are the ideas and laws that make no sense nor would work in a civilized culture. I define civilized here by us having an understanding of human nature, suffering, and human rights.

Despite the much touted "civilized culture" many seem to think we live in, more people have died violently in the past 100 years than in the previous 2000 years of history, IMO. I think you are making the mistake many do, that of blaming God for what wicked persons choose to do, both spirit and human persons. As Job 35:2 asks:"Are you so convinced that you are right that you would say, I am more righteous than God? " or Job 37:23,24: God "is great in power, And he never violates his justice and abundant righteousness. Therefore, people should fear him. For he does not favor any who think that they are wise. **Should a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? Let the one who wants to reprove God answer. (Job 40:2)

Would Christianity Survive without the filter of a Church?

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