Am I going to hell?

sojourner · Feb 20, 2006

lovedmb said:
I understand what you are saying, but then what is the point of worrying about it on earth? If we will be presented with knowledge then you no longer need faith.
I agree that many (IMO *all*) Christians communities use coersion. I also agree that it is crappy, which is why I'm not one.

How can you not believe in consequences? I'm afraid I don't follow. Unless you are specifically speaking in a negative connotations. But consequences themselves are not inherently "bad" or "good". Heaven would be a consequense of doing whatever it is that God wants you to do to get there. Hell is a consequense of getting it wrong. So you don't believe anyone will be in hell? How do you come to that conclusion? There is a "right" and "wrong" choice. You believe in Jesus or you are wrong. I can't understand how you see this differently while believing in the Bible.

Then I'm not sure what purpose faith serves. Why bother? I have very happy, full life without Christianity. If I'm supposed to believe in God, but don't, and then he presents himself to me, and I am overwhelmed with "truth", then what difference does it make if I go to church on Sunday?

I have always thought the point of faith was to "prove" to God that you could "pass the test" to get back to heaven. I have heard all the "good news", and frankly I don't buy it. I don't perceive the Christian God to be loving, or even very kind, and dare I say intelligent. It seems to me if he were any of the above, that he would have thought up a better system to bring his children home to him. The one he has now is rather shoddy.

Jesus disn't ask us to believe in a system of theology. Jesus asked us to live our lives in love. If you do that, then you're following Jesus' command.

No. I don't believe in hell. I believe everybody is brought into union with God, in the end. heaven is not a consequence of our actions. heaven is the result of God's love for us.

Faith isn't a proof of worthiness. That goes against the grain of the gospel message. You don't perceive the Christian God to be loving, or kind, or intelligent, because you've been acquainted with too many Christians who don't live out of love, or kindness, or intelligence.

The purpose faith serves is to help us accept God's love, and to learn to live out that love in the world and in our own lives.

Shadow Wolf · Feb 20, 2006

Personally, I find the thought of a loving God that will throw people into eternal damnation for not worshipping him to not be loving, but an egomaniac un-loving God, that doesn't deserve to be worshiped. What if a "good person" was witnessed to in a negative way, such as being to they will go to hell for not believing in Christ, there charity donations and volunteering are meaningless in God's eyes, and there life-style will get them into Hell, if that person rejected Christ because of that negativity, I have my doubts a truly loving God would sentence them to Hell.

"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:10-12)
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:14-15)

"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." (Luke 6:36-38)

Those verses seem to say that you will not go to Hell just because you are not a Christian.

ArcaÃios · Feb 20, 2006

The entire book says you'll go to Hell if you don't believe in God in one way, shape, or form, be it before the time of Jehova, Jesus, or the Spirit. There has been a little discrepancy recently, since people have been going back over the original texts and coming up with theories that there is no Biblical Hell. "Sheol," which has always been translated from Hebrew to mean "Hell," supposedly just means the earth or the ground and that, during the Rapture, everyone will come to Heaven from "Sheol;" literally, the dead will rise.

The entire Bible's filled with contradictions and I wouldn't put much faith in it if I were you. I don't.

lovedmb · Feb 20, 2006

Luke Wolf said:
Personally, I find the thought of a loving God that will throw people into eternal damnation for not worshipping him to not be loving, but an egomaniac un-loving God, that doesn't deserve to be worshiped. What if a "good person" was witnessed to in a negative way, such as being to they will go to hell for not believing in Christ, there charity donations and volunteering are meaningless in God's eyes, and there life-style will get them into Hell, if that person rejected Christ because of that negativity, I have my doubts a truly loving God would sentence them to Hell.

I agree, this is such a sticking point for me, and while you posted some good vs. from the Bible, to support your understanding, is part of the problem for me. That someone else can easily find something between the covers of the "good book" to contradict your point, makes the entire thing seem meaningless to me. Frubals to you.

sojourner · Feb 20, 2006

ArcaÐios said:
The entire book says you'll go to Hell if you don't believe in God in one way, shape, or form, be it before the time of Jehova, Jesus, or the Spirit. There has been a little discrepancy recently, since people have been going back over the original texts and coming up with theories that there is no Biblical Hell. "Sheol," which has always been translated from Hebrew to mean "Hell," supposedly just means the earth or the ground and that, during the Rapture, everyone will come to Heaven from "Sheol;" literally, the dead will rise.

The entire Bible's filled with contradictions and I wouldn't put much faith in it if I were you. I don't.

Actually, "hell" never appears as an O.T. concept. Hell is a Greek, not a Hebrew concept. The Hebrew word "Sheol" is a term that means, "A place of shadows." Heaven/hell come to Christianity as a Hellenistic dualism viewpoint of the afterlife.
The contradictions arise between discrepancies of time, place and philodophical viewpoint. However, all agree on one vital point: God loves us and searches us out.

maya1 · Feb 20, 2006

I think it is very interesting that you have this issue, because I grew up christian and the thought of going to Hell was always a motivating factor in practicing that religion. I have sense left the faith and I'm currently on my own spiritual journey. I would always wonder why would a loving and compassionate God sentence his children to hell. I have a family and regardless of what any of my childred would do I would never sentence them to an eternity of fire. Furthermore, if the Christian God's love isn't based on any conditions why have Hell at all.

nutshell · Feb 20, 2006

lovedmb said:
Really? So if I am following another Christian denom, and I reject LDS teachings, I can still have eternal life, with my family and God?

You must accept Christ and do all he has asked. You might attach a label with that. I do not.

lovedmb said:
And I would bet money, marbles or chalk, I know Mormonism just as well as you think you do.

I don't really feel like getting in a pissing contest with you, but I'm curious to know why you think you know just as much as a lifelong member. Please share.

nutshell · Feb 20, 2006

lovedmb said:
I was taught that it would be like earth.

Strike three.

I'm not sure who would teach you that or why. The third "degree" is comparable to the glory of the stars, not the earth. This earth is a fallen place, filled with sickness and death. The third "degree" will not be like that.

Squirt · Feb 20, 2006

nutshell said:
I don't really feel like getting in a pissing contest with you, but I'm curious to know why you think you know just as much as a lifelong member. Please share.

Unless I am mistaken, lovedmd is an ex-Mormon. Now I'm not going to comment on whether she knows more about Mormonism than you do, since I have no idea how fully she understood Mormon doctrine when she left. But I'll tell you one thing -- whether it's Mormonism, Catholicism or Judaism, nobody leaves a religion without having some negative feelings about it, and inevitably these negative feelings seem to surface eventually.

nutshell · Feb 20, 2006

is that true lovedmd? are you an ex-Mormon?

lovedmb · Feb 21, 2006

nutshell said:
Strike three.

I'm not sure who would teach you that or why. The third "degree" is comparable to the glory of the stars, not the earth. This earth is a fallen place, filled with sickness and death. The third "degree" will not be like that.

Well then you'll have to speak to my old YW teachers and bishopbric who held the big "Airplane crash" fireside twice while I was a youth.
Because that was what I was taught, that it would be similar to living on earth. But whatever.
What exactly do you suppose the glory of the stars is like? What were you taught, as we know there is no "clear" doctrine, only fallible humans teaching us.

lovedmb · Feb 21, 2006

Squirt said:
Unless I am mistaken, lovedmd is an ex-Mormon. Now I'm not going to comment on whether she knows more about Mormonism than you do, since I have no idea how fully she understood Mormon doctrine when she left. But I'll tell you one thing -- whether it's Mormonism, Catholicism or Judaism, nobody leaves a religion without having some negative feelings about it, and inevitably these negative feelings seem to surface eventually.

No denying it, I do have negative feelings about it, but not as much as you might think. I left years ago, and now I just like to debate, but for the most part there isn't much that gets me tied up in knots about it. Mainly my negative feelings come when in a debate, where I offer up documented evidence I am met with "good feelings" comments, "You should pray" "The holy ghost has abandoned you because of some sin, clearly", or the best one of course is "YOU ARE ANTI!!!" etc.
That really gets old.
Besides, if you are here debating *any* religion, you probably have some pretty strong feelings about religion, I can't imagine we all aren't biased.
So I am "ex" mormon yes, but "anti"...nah. No reason to be. It serves no purpose. In fact, I used to hate those darn picketers outside general conference every year, and thought they should stop wasting their time annoying the Mormons, and I still do.
In fact, my entire family is mormon, pioneer stock from southern Idaho. So no worries. I promise to play nice. I've been at this for several years, debating religion, and there is no reaction from LDS members that I won't be suspecting now that this "has been revealed". But it was fun to just be the newbie for awhile, without any preconcieved ideas.

James the Persian · Feb 21, 2006

sojourner said:
Actually, "hell" never appears as an O.T. concept. Hell is a Greek, not a Hebrew concept. The Hebrew word "Sheol" is a term that means, "A place of shadows." Heaven/hell come to Christianity as a Hellenistic dualism viewpoint of the afterlife.
The contradictions arise between discrepancies of time, place and philodophical viewpoint. However, all agree on one vital point: God loves us and searches us out.

If the heaven/hell dichotomy is truly Helenistic, why is it that it's so peculiarly a western Christian understanding? We Orthodox do not believe in a place of reward called heaven and a place of punishment called hell and, of course, the Greeks (helenes) are Orthodox.

The idea of a loving God who eternally tortured people was one of the big things that turned me away from Christianity. Arguing that such punishment is motivated by love is nonsensical. How can vengeance be loving? And how can eternal punishment be anything but vengeful, given that there's no chance to mend your ways?

Thank heavens I found that there's a huge swathe of Christianity (all the east) that doesn't think like this and sees heaven and hell as our personal experience of the same inescapable love of God (No*s bumped an old thread on this recently entitled God is Hell). I could certainly never follow a God that conforms to the usual western Christian idea of Him.

And for Dawny, the majority of Christians do not believe that all non-Christians are damned. We don't, the OOs don't, RC teaching is, like ours, that we know where salvation is (i.e. in the Church) but not where it is not - that's somwhere over 1.2 billion just there. The historical view of the Church was likewise not in accord with your idea. For instance, St. Gregory of Nyssa came perilously close to universalism in his beliefs and was not condemned for it. The view you espouse is one that, as far as I can see, is peculiar to western Christianity, particularly the Protestant churches and some on the ultra-traditionalist fringes of Roman Catholicism.

James

sojourner · Feb 21, 2006

JamesThePersian said:
If the heaven/hell dichotomy is truly Helenistic, why is it that it's so peculiarly a western Christian understanding? We Orthodox do not believe in a place of reward called heaven and a place of punishment called hell and, of course, the Greeks (helenes) are Orthodox.

The idea of a loving God who eternally tortured people was one of the big things that turned me away from Christianity. Arguing that such punishment is motivated by love is nonsensical. How can vengeance be loving? And how can eternal punishment be anything but vengeful, given that there's no chance to mend your ways?

Thank heavens I found that there's a huge swathe of Christianity (all the east) that doesn't think like this and sees heaven and hell as our personal experience of the same inescapable love of God (No*s bumped an old thread on this recently entitled God is Hell). I could certainly never follow a God that conforms to the usual western Christian idea of Him.

And for Dawny, the majority of Christians do not believe that all non-Christians are damned. We don't, the OOs don't, RC teaching is, like ours, that we know where salvation is (i.e. in the Church) but not where it is not - that's somwhere over 1.2 billion just there. The historical view of the Church was likewise not in accord with your idea. For instance, St. Gregory of Nyssa came perilously close to universalism in his beliefs and was not condemned for it. The view you espouse is one that, as far as I can see, is peculiar to western Christianity, particularly the Protestant churches and some on the ultra-traditionalist fringes of Roman Catholicism.

James

You're right. I should have gone a little more in-depth with that thought. Thanks for the redirect.

Your last statement: I find that view particularly Calvinist. Calvinism is very deeply imbedded in American Protestantism. When we think of Protestantism, we usually think of Martin Luther, but Calvin's theology is much more prevalent in this country.

Am I going to hell?

sojourner

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