I am....

savagewind · Aug 10, 2013

Horrorble said:
The governing body does not believe there is any legitimate reason for leaving the organisation or criticising the organisation, right there is a big old neon warning sign!
They say if you leave the organisation you are leaving Jehovah because they believe you can only get to God through the organisation. I don't know how anyone can actually believe the "faithful and discreet slave" who write the publications are inspired by God, really? Even when there are mistakes in the watchtower?
.

They say they are inspired by God and to listen to them and obey is the only way to survive Armeggeddon and to survive the last test after a thousand years but they make the firm admittance they are not prophets. Not prophets but the only means of salavation means they are confessing being Jehovah.

I don't agree with how they interpret the rape of Dinah, that one especially freaks me out

I do not remember that. I'm not looking it up either. )( I do have contention about their interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4. I was assuming most people who look at the Bible as God's Word think the same way. I have not found another group who teaches it that way.

Horrorble · Aug 10, 2013

savagewind said:
They say they are inspired by God and to listen to them and obey is the only way to survive Armeggeddon and to survive the last test after a thousand years but they make the firm admittance they are not prophets. Not prophets but the only means of salavation means they are confessing being Jehovah.

I do not remember that. I'm not looking it up either. )( I do have contention about their interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4. I was assuming most people who look at the Bible as God's Word think the same way. I have not found another group who teaches it that way.

Basically they imply it is partly Dinah's fault for getting rape because she hung around with loose women.

savagewind · Aug 10, 2013

Horrorble said:
Basically they imply it is partly Dinah's fault for getting rape because she hung around with loose women.

Aha! I remember. The point they make is, fear them, they will lead you into apostasy.

Horrorble · Aug 10, 2013

savagewind said:
Aha! I remember. The point they make is, fear them, they will lead you into apostasy.

True, but why explaining that they also imply Dinah got raped because she hung around with non Jewish women. Also I don't believe Dinah was a apostate nor was lead into apostasy. From reading the story it was more of a moral illustration of the consequences of revenge rather then why a woman gets raped.

savagewind · Aug 10, 2013

Horrorble said:
True, but why explaining that they also imply Dinah got raped because she hung around with non Jewish women. Also I don't believe Dinah was a apostate nor was lead into apostasy. From reading the story it was more of a moral illustration of the consequences of revenge rather then why a woman gets raped.

Yes. I am aware the point of the story is that the brothers responded very badly. I wonder if the rape of Dinah is about unbelievers' fondness for the things of God? Nebuchadrezzar, Cyrus, Ahasuerus, Agrippa (Acts 26:28), Pharaoh (Genesis 12:15), Potipher (39:1), Potipher's wife (39:7), Pharaoh again (49:37), Jethro (Exodus 3:1), the Egyptians (12:36,38), Ruth, Rehab, Balaam (Numbers 23:1-10, 18-24, and 24:3-9).

I believe Sheshem loved Dinah very much. He was willing to be circumcised for her. The scriptures never say if she loved him back. Maybe it was called rape, not because he forced her, but because it was wrong and she knew it. I think he did not know it though because it was their custom to do things that way.

The other lesson I hear from the story is Sheshem who could have any woman he wanted chose a woman of God over all the others.

Your gates will always stand open, they will never be shut, day or night, so that people may bring you the wealth of the nations-- their kings led in triumphal procession.Isaiah 60:11
Revelation 21:26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

Horrorble · Aug 10, 2013

savagewind said:
Yes. I am aware the point of the story is that the brothers responded very badly. I wonder if the rape of Dinah is about unbelievers' fondness for the things of God? Nebuchadrezzar, Cyrus, Ahasuerus, Agrippa (Acts 26:28), Pharaoh (Genesis 12:15), Potipher (39:1), Potipher's wife (39:7), Pharaoh again (49:37), Jethro (Exodus 3:1), the Egyptians (12:36,38), Ruth, Rehab, Balaam (Numbers 23:1-10, 18-24, and 24:3-9).

I believe Sheshem loved Dinah very much. He was willing to be circumcised for her. The scriptures never say if she loved him back. Maybe it was called rape, not because he forced her, but because it was wrong and she knew it. I think he did not know it though because it was their custom to do things that way.

The other lesson I hear from the story is Sheshem who could have any woman he wanted chose a woman of God over all the others.

Your gates will always stand open, they will never be shut, day or night, so that people may bring you the wealth of the nations-- their kings led in triumphal procession.Isaiah 60:11
Revelation 21:26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

So are saying Dinah had consensual sex with this guy and it wasn't really rape? Some translations used the word defiled.

savagewind · Aug 10, 2013

Horrorble said:
So are saying Dinah had consensual sex with this guy and it wasn't really rape? Some translations used the word defiled.

I am saying it might not have been. She was young, I believe. Isn't it true even today that sex between someone under 16 and over can be called rape even though it is mutual attraction? That is what I believe happened. She was not old enough and experienced enough in right and wrong to be consenting. It is possible she was attracted to him and consented to it. That is my opinion. I have been wrong before and am sure I will be wrong again sooner or later. I am just saying it is possible. OK? To be saying it is not possible she liked him and did it for him is going beyond the things written.

Horrorble · Aug 10, 2013

savagewind said:
I am saying it might not have been. She was young, I believe. Isn't it true even today that sex between someone under 16 and over can be called rape even though it is mutual attraction? That is what I believe happened. She was not old enough and experienced enough in right and wrong to be consenting. It is possible she was attracted to him and consented to it. That is my opinion. I have been wrong before and am sure I will be wrong again sooner or later. I am just saying it is possible. OK? To be saying it is not possible she liked him and did it for him is going beyond the things written.

Oh right I see, was she an adult at the time?

savagewind · Aug 10, 2013

Why did I think that? Watchtower teaches Shechem was "the most honorable of the whole house of his father" but when I looked up the reference, it is not there. I do not know what scripture they use to back that. It is what I believed, did God not say it? Genesis 34:19 I found it!

Shechem — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY it-2 pp. 914-915

And another link for the curious

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011333?q=shechem&p=par

savagewind · Aug 10, 2013

Horrorble said:
Oh right I see, was she an adult at the time?

I assume she was not. Can not kings and princes have the youngest virgins they want? I don't know. Thank God for freedom, though.

Horrorble · Aug 10, 2013

savagewind said:
I assume she was not. Can not kings and princes have the youngest virgins they want? I don't know. Thank God for freedom, though.

Did people get married young at that time though? Maybe it was seen as a violation because it was not arranged by the parents (as in it wasn't an arranged married?) Did the father not have to approve first?

Horrorble · Aug 10, 2013

savagewind said:
Why did I think that? Watchtower teaches Shechem was "the most honorable of the whole house of his father" but when I looked up the reference, it is not there. I do not know what scripture they use to back that. It is what I believed, did God not say it? Genesis 34:19 I found it!

Shechem — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY it-2 pp. 914-915

And another link for the curious

Avoid Harmful Association! — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

That is an interesting link
"What activities do you think Dinah might have engaged in with her companions in Canaan?"
I think they would of went clubbing, grinding on strange men and smoked crack.

They fact is we don't know what they did together it just says Dinah visited some women.
" Why, do you think, did Dinah regularly visit the daughters of Canaan?"
Did she regularly visit them though? Other translations say "(dinah) went out to visit the women of the land" and their translation says "(dinah used to go out to see the daughters of the land." which makes it seem she went out more than once.

savagewind · Aug 10, 2013

Horrorble said:
Did people get married young at that time though? Maybe it was seen as a violation because it was not arranged by the parents (as in it wasn't an arranged married?) Did the father not have to approve first?

I believe so. Yes, the father should approve first. I think people did get married young then. I see no reason to believe otherwise except for what is wrtten in Genesis about how old they were before they fathered children. I cannot take it literally. I might go to hell for not believing it but I can't.

I think anything out of the range of God's will be done can be considered defiled. And I don't think it was Jehovah calling it defilement. Wasn't it the population of Israel calling it that? And it did become defiled when her brothers sought revenge.

savagewind · Aug 10, 2013

Horrorble said:
That is an interesting link
"What activities do you think Dinah might have engaged in with her companions in Canaan?"
I think they would of went clubbing, grinding on strange men and smoked crack.
They fact is we don't know what they did together it just says Dinah visited some women.
" Why, do you think, did Dinah regularly visit the daughters of Canaan?"
Did she regularly visit them though? Other translations say "(dinah) went out to visit the women of the land" and their translation says "(dinah used to go out to see the daughters of the land." which makes it seem she went out more than once.

Two very good points. If the machine would let me frubal you again I would.

Horrorble · Aug 10, 2013

savagewind said:
Two very good points. If the machine would let me frubal you again I would.

This one is a classic "What steps can you take to avoid being exploited sexually by people who have no regard for God’s moral standards?"
JW men never exploit women? or children may I add

savagewind · Aug 10, 2013

"What steps can you take to avoid being exploited sexually by people who have no regard for God’s moral standards?"

Amazing! When Sheshem is resurrected and sees they call him a person without (God's) moral standards, he will say (I am sure!) wt*? I'm sure. I really am sure.

Anyone might think that by what the Watchtower teaches high moral standards are not high at all if you have not learned them from the Watchtower.

You and me might get some points, but it's Saturday after all, isn't it? I shall choose salt with mine, if I may, please and thank you.

savagewind · Aug 10, 2013

That is an insider joke between me and, I guess, nobody.

Horrorble · Aug 10, 2013

savagewind said:
That is an insider joke between me and, I guess, nobody.

was the salt bit referring to having a shot?

savagewind · Aug 10, 2013

Horrorble said:
was the salt bit referring to having a shot?

No! When a person is diciplined it would be nice that the discipline is not generic but that it comes with a little good news that is called "the salt of the earth". Matthew 5:13

savagewind · Aug 10, 2013

But I do like a good Margarita.

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