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I read it and chose not to gain info from it. I didn't ignore it but rather made a choice not to be swayed by it.jazzalta said:
I wasn't mocking. I was only stating my opinion of fact of which I understood it to be. And still do.jazzalta said:
And I suggested the opposite.jazzalta said:
My concern is that we thing , as a human race, that we have all the answers and that they just have to all come from science.jazzalta said:
Dunno, just a strange feeling.wmam said:
Interesting. But there were many things that were an abomination to God, some include: dishonesty in business, tarot reading, astrology, trimming one's beard, unjustly acts, wearing blended fabrics, and on and on. Yet the so called righteous pick out homosexuality as their favorite. But to quote the New Testament Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.i believe in tranquility said:
No, it a 'temptation' much like heterosexuality.JamesThePersian said:
True. For some people heterosexuality is such a temptation. I didn't raise it as such as, for me, the greater temptation is to treat people badly as a result of my short temper. I simply don't have the 'wandering eye' that some heterosexuals do and so lust isn't something I have to grapple with much. My only point, though, was that homosexuality is not a sin but rather a temptation. The list of such temptations is presumably as long as the list of sins they can lead to.Jayhawker Soule said:
How is it different from heterosexuality?JamesThePersian said:
I'm sorry but I don't know exactly what you're after. I don't think it is different. If a person is homosexual or heterosexual and lives happily without it tempting them to have extra-marital sex then neither is a temptation for that person. If it does tempt them to such acts then it is a temptation. The practical difference between the two is that a heterosexual does have a non-sinful outlet for their feelings, marriage. The homosexual does not. This is, I would suggest, a very difficult cross to bear for this very reason.Jayhawker Soule said:
And what of the heterosexual who has 'marital' sex after being married by a judge?JamesThePersian said:
I thought I'd already answered this both here and in a previous thread. If they are an Orthodox Christian then they know the teaching of the Church, they know that their 'marriage' is not recognised as such and so any sex they have is extra-marital. As with all such moral values, however, I cannot expect heterodox and non-Christian people to be bound by the same rules. Adultery, as I'm sure I said before, is surely wilfull not unknowing engagement in extra-marital sex. Do you recall having this discussion before with me or am I incorrect in thinking it was you?Jayhawker Soule said:
And it is quite convenient to focus on this. The fact remains that the refusal of Orthodox Christianity to sanction same-sex marriage indicates a view of homosexuality that has nothing to do with adultery - i.e., the view that it is an abomination.JamesThePersian said:
I seem to remember the name "Fred Phelps" but I am not sure from where or in what context. I haven't had the time to google the name so I really can not remark.YmirGF said:
God created nature, and God created it all "good." Humanity twisted God's good creation. God gave us sexual desire as a gift -- not as a moral test. It sounds like classic dualism to me: spirit=good, physical=bad.JamesThePersian said:
It's got nothing to do with dualism. There is nothing bad about the physical in Orthodox belief whatsoever. In fact such dualism is seen as a denial of the Incarnation. Sex is certainly not bad. We do not believe, however, that God intended man to have same sex relationships. We do not believe that God is the author of a person's attraction to members of their own sex. We do believe that God intended us only to have sex within marriage and we do believe that God intended marriage to be between a man and a woman. In the context of marriage sex is a good thing and a great blessing and we certainly do not see it as in any way evil (we never have had the sorts of beliefs advocated by Bl. Augustine and subsequent western Christians). Whether you agree with this view or not is up to you, but God is not responsible for every little thing that happens to us. Most of the time we are responsible or our parents are or our community etc. God gives us a standard to live up to and asks us to freely choose to follow it. Part of that standard is a standard of sexual morality that excludes all extra-marital sex and specifically excludes homosexual sex, but we would tend to look on homosexuality as more of a spiritual illness or flaw than as an evil. We would certainly not say homosexuals are bad and heterosexuals are good.sojourner said:
The Orthodox Church does have a view on the nature of homosexual relationships that has nothing to do with adultery. We view them as a symptom of fallen nature and one that has no place in God's plan. I believe this to be absolutely correct and will not apologise for it, but I don't expect everyone else to share our view. As such, however, you can't possibly expect us to legitimise said relationships by offering them the sacrament of marriage. This doesn't alter the fact that all extra-marital sex is seen as sin on an equal par, whether heterosexual or homosexual. I do not believe that we view homosexuality as an abomination, however. It is seen as an unfortunate consequence of the fall that deserves compassion and understanding, not condemnation, but you don't tell a sick person to ignore their illness and continue to be sick. As we see sin as sickness rather than crime the same is true with respect to homosexual attraction within the Orthodox faith.Jayhawker Soule said:
"We would tend to look on homosexuality as more of a spiritual illness or flaw than as an evil."JamesThePersian said:
So, now the Orthodox Church says that these folks are "fallen" and "have no place in God's plan." That's a real loving thing to say. These people are obviously "sick" because they happen to be attracted to the same sex.JamesThePersian said:
I'm afraid that you're rather attacking a straw man here. Do you choose to be physically ill? Do you believe that God makes you physically ill? We see spiritual illness to be exactly the same. Did I choose to have a short temper? Did God make me that way? No. I am that way, I have to live with it and deal with it. I never said homosexuality was a choice, so I've no idea where you got that from. Do you believe that everything in this world which you don't specifically choose is visited on you by God? If you do then you have a view of God that is far more meddling than mine. I think you ought to at least try and understand my point of view before attacking me for holding views which I simply do not.sojourner said: