Mohammad's Message vs Jesus' Message

loverOfTruth said:

That's the best you could come up with - Isaiah 53 and that even without handling/responding to any of the verses I have stated. You just have your excuse of 'Imam' and now 'Islamic/Muslim apologetic' sites. All I have done is given you plain old biblical passages and gave my explanation as to why it fails to prove your point - the least you could do (if you were really able to, regardless of where you think it came from), is respond to those with a valid explanation. But you failed miserably. Anyway, I'll respond to your Isaiah 53 when I get better from my viral fever. Watch out for that

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People who actually try to speak about the Bible should make an effort to familiarize themselves with it before they open their mouth, at least if they don't want to embarass themselves. Isaiah 53 is arguably the most important part of the Old Testament for Christians when it comes to predicting the messiah. I never actually counted but there might be 5-10 individual prophecies contained in it. Some have actually called it "the Gospel of the Old Testament". I said Isaiah 53 is a good starting point. Christians believe there are some 40 OT prophecies regarding the messiah that he fulfills and that's a conservative estimate. Some even say there's over 300 prophecies in the OT that he fulfills. If you're going to just run to some Islamic apologetic website to grab an argument as to why he doesn't fulfill it you might as well not waste either one of our time. I can easily go to those same websites to hear a traditional Islamic opinion. I'll tell you what I would genuinely be interested in: your own sincere thoughts on the subject after giving the Gospels and Isaiah 53 an honest read. If you actually decide to take me up on it, start at Isaiah 52:13 and read through ch. 53. I think reading two Gospels is a minimum to be able to even begin to form an actual informed opinion on the subject, the Gospel of John and then one of the "synoptic" Gospels (Matt, Mark, Luke). TBH, I'd be quite impressed if you actually took the time to read one Gospel, say the book of Matthew, much less all four or even two for that matter. Also just to touch on some of the verses that you posted without trying to disect your logic, the verses I saw alone aren't enough to qualify as rock solid confirmation of a messiah even if they do begin to paint a picture of what he looks like. The link below contains a pretty good list of the prophecies we believe Jesus fulfilled

Prophecies Jesus - 44 Messianic Prophecies Jesus Fulfilled

a few of the prophecies:

2Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.Micah 5:2Matthew 2:1
Luke 2:4-63Messiah would be born of a virgin.Isaiah 7:14Matthew 1:22-23
Luke 1:26-31
10Messiah would be called Immanuel.Isaiah 7:14Matthew 1:2311Messiah would spend a season in Egypt.Hosea 11:1Matthew 2:14-1512A massacre of children would happen at Messiah's birthplace.Jeremiah 31:15Matthew 2:16-1813A messenger would prepare the way for MessiahIsaiah 40:3-5Luke 3:3-614Messiah would be rejected by his own people.Psalm 69:8
Isaiah 53:3John 1:11
John 7:5

25Messiah would be betrayed.Psalm 41:9
Zechariah 11:12-13Luke 22:47-48
Matthew 26:14-1626Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field.Zechariah 11:12-13Matthew 27:9-1027Messiah would be falsely accused.Psalm 35:11Mark 14:57-58
40Messiah would be buried with the rich.Isaiah 53:9Matthew 27:57-6041Messiah would resurrect from the dead.Psalm 16:10
Psalm 49:15Matthew 28:2-7
Acts 2:22-3242Messiah would ascend to heaven.Psalm 24:7-10Mark 16:19
Luke 24:51

You brought up a Numbers passage that I wanted to respond to. I'd say that the verse is taken out of its context. Is the author really trying to make a statement about the possibility of God walking the earth in the form of a homo sapien or is he trying to say that God is not a sinner like men? We cannot be so simplistic when trying to discern the meaning of the Bible. It's still a piece of literature. It's still communicated through the medium of language. The same rules regarding the usage of context in analyzing all literature whether secular or relgious still apply. And I can't stress enough, if you're just going to parrot what some imam off the internet has to say about this you're going to completely waste your time putting a post together. I've been around here long enough to spot posts that the OP hasn't actually put any of his own thought into and has simply plagarized the thoughts of someone else.

This conversation about the all important concept of context brings up something else about Muslim theology that is worth responding to. Muslim love to trumpet how "God is one". I wonder if many even realizing that this is pulled from Deuteronomy and was also quoted by Jesus. The question we can ask ourselves, especially in light of all the other verses that talk about God having no equal is: "is the Scripture really addressing how many ways God is able to manifest himself or is it affirming the his status as the one and only God of the universe


Mark
http://bible.cc/mark/12-28.htm

• Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to Him, "Right, Teacher, You have truly stated that He is One; and there is no one else besides Him;" (Mark 12:29-32)

Deuteronomy 4Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.a 5Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength

Deuteronomy 4:35 You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD
is God; besides him there is no other.

4:39 Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Something else I know Christians and Muslims can agree on is the existence of the Devil. It's interesting to read his tactics in the Gospels. The biblical Satan loves to twist the meaning of Scripture verses in order to lead people astray

Matthew 4:1-11

New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness

4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]”
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him

The difference between our faith and every other belief system is the difference between "advice" and "news". Yeshua didn't just come to give advice. He came to bear our debt, to pay for the penalty of our sins, the wages of sin is death, so that we could be free to forgive one another as he forgave us. And so that we could receive the kind of love we as beings so desperately need - unconditional, accepting love. None of us had this kind of love that we need, only Messiah could love us and he did so, so that we could become the kind of people he created us to be.

Paul in his letter to the Romans is urging us on the basis of all that he taught on, he urges us to become living sacrifices:
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:1, 2 KJV)

If we have not understood all that the mercies of God has done, if we have not understood doctrinally and theologically deep enough, all that Messiah has accomplished for us, then we have become useless to him. God is calling us to live our lives as living sacrifices unto him. Our problem is, we are so prideful that we are not willing to give up anything for others. When a sacrifice was laid upon the alter there was a great deal of suffering involved, the animal experienced pain and suffering. What are we willing to give up? What are we willing to place upon the alter? So that we can become a blessing to others, and become servants of the Most High God?

F0uad said:

Well i am not sure if you are taking me serious or your simply ignoring what i have said. Since we both have different interpretations why cant we read the text as it is?

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F0uad said:

Lets say there is no Tasfeer(context/commentary) lets be Quranist and ''Hadithist'' for once. Are you still then insisting that they are the same?

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The point is about the proper way to interpret the Holy Books.

The Quran gives a few good guidance regarding the Proper Interpretations.

For example, the Quran teaches, that the verses must not be taken out of their context, otherwise their meaning becomes distorted. Quran rebuked them for taking them out of context:


"Then, for having broken their solemn pledge, We rejected them and caused their hearts to harden-[so that now] they distort the meaning of the [re-vealed] words, taking them out of their context; ..." Quran 5:13-14


So, that means, any verse must be understood in its relation with the History behind it. the Verses must be understood, in its relation with other verses. But not taking it out, and then say, this is what it says.

Another guideline from Quran is that, the whole message of the Book must be understood, not just the part that suits us, while denying other part or verses.
Quran rebuked them for denying part, while accepting some parts:

"Believe ye then part of the Book, and deny part?" Quran 2:85

then, the Quran teaches, that, in order to understand it, we need to ponder on its verses, as they have deeper meaning.

So, once we follow these guidance, I don't see any contradiction between Quran and the Bible.

-Peacemaker- said:

People who actually try to speak about the Bible should make an effort to familiarize themselves with it before they open their mouth, at least if they don't want to embarass themselves. Isaiah 53 is arguably the most important part of the Old Testament for Christians when it comes to predicting the messiah. I never actually counted but there might be 5-10 individual prophecies contained in it. Some have actually called it "the Gospel of the Old Testament". I said Isaiah 53 is a good starting point. Christians believe there are some 40 OT prophecies regarding the messiah that he fulfills and that's a conservative estimate. Some even say there's over 300 prophecies in the OT that he fulfills. If you're going to just run to some Islamic apologetic website to grab an argument as to why he doesn't fulfill it you might as well not waste either one of our time. I can easily go to those same websites to hear a traditional Islamic opinion. I'll tell you what I would genuinely be interested in: your own sincere thoughts on the subject after giving the Gospels and Isaiah 53 an honest read. If you actually decide to take me up on it, start at Isaiah 52:13 and read through ch. 53. I think reading two Gospels is a minimum to be able to even begin to form an actual informed opinion on the subject, the Gospel of John and then one of the "synoptic" Gospels (Matt, Mark, Luke). TBH, I'd be quite impressed if you actually took the time to read one Gospel, say the book of Matthew, much less all four or even two for that matter. Also just to touch on some of the verses that you posted without trying to disect your logic, the verses I saw alone aren't enough to qualify as rock solid confirmation of a messiah even if they do begin to paint a picture of what he looks like. The link below contains a pretty good list of the prophecies we believe Jesus fulfilled

.....

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First of all, I am not sure why you got into demonstrating some OT prophecies foretelling the coming of Jesus(pbuh) without actually dealing with any of the biblical passages I have quoted. May be because you had no answer to the OT and NT passages that prophecizes the coming of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and the NT passages that unequivocally proves
that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) could not fit the description of the False Prophet mentioned in the Bible.

Now you seem to be confused about the Islamic point of view of Jesus(pbuh) as well. So now let me state that - one more time for you. Every Muslim believes Jesus(pbuh) Christ to be a real Person sent by God Almighty who was born of virgin Mary(pbuh) and who performed many miracles. We also believe that the Jews conspired to kill him but God took him up instead and he did not die or get crucified. Finally, we are waiting for his 2nd coming. So in light of all
that if there exists some prophecies in the OT foretelling Jesus's(pbuh) arrival (just like Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) has been foretold in OT/NT), I am not sure why Muslims in general would have any problem with that unless the
passages you are stating in support of that doesn't make sense at all or does not fit the description etc.

Now let me explain why Isaiah 53 doesn't prove what you are trying to prove - that the prophecy in this passage is about a man(Jesus) to come who would die for the sins of the mankind. Even if I don't accept the Jewish view of this
passage being talked about Israel, just a plain reading from Isaiah 52:13 through Isaiah 53 reveals few things that does not match the person of Jesus(pbuh). Here are a few of those for you ....

Isaiah 52:14 ..his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness.. (NIV)

According to NT, Jesus(pbuh) was never "disfigured beyond human likeness". Crucifixion does not cause anyone to be disfigured beyond human recognition, neither did it cause the same for Jesus(pbuh) according to even NT.

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Isaiah 53:3 ...He was despised and rejected by mankind,.. (NIV)

Unless you do not consider the followers of Jesus(pbuh) then and now (including Muslims who acknowledges and reveres him as a Messiah) NOT part of the mankind, Jesus(pbuh) was never rejected by mankind.

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Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.(NIV)

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (KJV)

So looking at both the translations, it is clear that the verse says he was WOUNDED and NOT KILLED.. But according to NT he was killed.

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Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

According to (Matthew 27:46) Jesus(pbuh) cried out loud stating "My GOD my GOD, why have you forsaken me?". So he definitely did open his mouth and did not remain silent.

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Isaiah 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death,

According to the verse above, he was to be buried with both the wicked and the rich. But according to the NT, he was buried alone. All that the verse that you have stated Matthew 27:57-60 shows is that a rich man buried him nothing else. Nice try in twisting the scripture to fit your views.

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Isaiah 53:10 ...he will see his offspring and prolong his days...

Jesus(pbuh) did not live a long life, neither did he marry or see his children.

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That's why I mentioned to you that this is the best you could come up with ? Typical Christian apologetic attempt to fit Jesus(pbuh) into some passages of OT where it clearly doesn't fit in any unambiguous manner. Nice try though. Now you can feel free to blame your embarrassingly poor apologetic on the Imams.

-Peacemaker- said:

You brought up a Numbers passage that I wanted to respond to. I'd say that the verse is taken out of its context. Is the author really trying to make a statement about the possibility of God walking the earth in the form of a homo sapien or is he trying to say that God is not a sinner like men? We cannot be so simplistic when trying to discern the meaning of the Bible. It's still a piece of literature. It's still communicated through the medium of language. The same rules regarding the usage of context in analyzing all literature whether secular or relgious still apply.

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Or it could very well 'in context mean' as it states that 'God is not human being, only human beings sin' as can be clearly understood by another translation of the following verse :
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (KJV)

Which is further expounded by John Gill's Bible commentary(and not by any Imam): "Man is a creature consisting of a body of flesh and blood, and of a soul, a created and finite spirit; but God, though he has the parts of an human body ascribed to him in a figurative sense, yet is not to be conceived of in a corporeal manner; and though he is a Spirit, yet eternal, immense, and infinite;" [1]

Jesus(pbuh) would perfectly fit into the definition of Man in the above commentary but God would not. It is really funny how Christians take some unambiguous statements about God and add stuff to it to interpret it in a way to support some ambiguous statements in the Bible.

[1]http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/numbers-23-19.html

-Peacemaker- said:

And I can't stress enough, if you're just going to parrot what some imam off the internet has to say about this you're going to completely waste your time putting a post together. I've been around here long enough to spot posts that the OP hasn't actually put any of his own thought into and has simply plagarized the thoughts of someone else.

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Well, that seems to be straight from the loser handbook - anything that you cannot counter or doesn't agree with your views, brush it off as from some internet Imams or Islamic apologetics websites rather than dealing it with scriptural evidence and valid arguments. I have been here long enough to realize that trend by some anti-Islamic evangelical christians who couldn't come up with any counter arguments. Nothing unique on your part here.

-Peacemaker- said:

This conversation about the all important concept of context brings up something else about Muslim theology that is worth responding to. Muslim love to trumpet how "God is one". I wonder if many even realizing that this is pulled from Deuteronomy and was also quoted by Jesus. The question we can ask ourselves, especially in light of all the other verses that talk about God having no equal is: "is the Scripture really addressing how many ways God is able to manifest himself or is it affirming the his status as the one and only God of the universe


Mark
http://bible.cc/mark/12-28.htm

• Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to Him, "Right, Teacher, You have truly stated that He is One; and there is no one else besides Him;" (Mark 12:29-32)

Deuteronomy 4Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.a 5Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength

Deuteronomy 4:35 You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD
is God; besides him there is no other.

4:39 Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

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It is amazing how you state even Jesus(pbuh) agreed that 'He(God) is One; and there is no one else besides Him' and yet you keep adding 'a man in flesh and a holy ghost' to that One God. So you think the same God would tell He is One to Moses(pbuh), and Jesus(pbuh) and then say something different to Muhammad(pbuh) ? No. That's what we have been telling you all along - God doesn't change His mind. God told Moses(pbuh) that He is one - and his followers believe and practice that. God told Muhammad(pbuh) that He is one - and his followers believe and practice that. Unfortunately, somehow the later followers of Jesus(pbuh) couldn't quite grasp the concept of One that Jesus(pbuh) also preached.

Mark 12 NIV - The Parable of the Tenants -

Jesus then - Bible Gateway
Under the section titled 'The Greatest Commandment'
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e]
....
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.
....
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”

So even Jesus(pbuh) thought that God is One really means God is One and the person who believes in that, is close to the kingdom of God. So you shouldn't need to rely on any other manifestation of God to be near the kingdom of heaven.

And yet again on Mark 10:17-18
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Which makes it even more clearer that Jesus(pbuh) is separating himself from God while referring to the One and Only God(and not himself) as good. If he was in equal footing with God Almighty in a different manifestation, he would not have done so.

And that's why when a Jew or a Muslim is in real trouble - they pray to 'God' crying 'O God' - and yet the Christians pray to 'Jesus' or 'O Jesus' - the one supposed manifestation of God that Jesus(pbuh) himself did not consider important or good enough. Go figure.

-Peacemaker- said:

Something else I know Christians and Muslims can agree on is the existence of the Devil. It's interesting to read his tactics in the Gospels. The biblical Satan loves to twist the meaning of Scripture verses in order to lead people astray

Matthew 4:1-11

New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness

4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]”
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him

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I am not sure what your point is about all the above while ignoring the signs of true vs. false prophet stated in the Bible itself. But anyway, I will end with the following as stated by the One and Only Almighty Creator God:

"... and they falsely, having no knowledge, attribute to Him sons and daughters. Praise and glory be to Him! (for He is) above what they attribute to Him!To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.That is Allah, your Lord! there is no god but He, the Creator of all things: then worship ye Him: and He hath power to dispose of all affairs." (Al Qur'an 6:100-102)

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was." (Al Qur'an 3:59) - God can do miracles, just like he did for Adam - He doesn't need to impregnate a human being for that (as you have temporarily and honestly shockingly to me asked and then later removed).

"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs." (Al-Qur'an 4:171)

and finally ponder upon the clear and unambiguous statements of the Bible if you believe it contains word of God as it states :
"... Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God..." 1 John 4:2

So either those words in the Bible is false or Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) who acknowledges and honors the mighty messenger of God, Jesus(pbuh) Christ in flesh, is not false and truly from God Almighty. Its your choice.

Peace unto you.

loverOfTruth said:

First of all, I am not sure why you got into demonstrating some OT prophecies foretelling the coming of Jesus(pbuh) without actually dealing with any of the biblical passages I have quoted. May be because you had no answer to the OT and NT passages that prophecizes the coming of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and the NT passages that unequivocally proves
that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) could not fit the description of the False Prophet mentioned in the Bible.

Now you seem to be confused about the Islamic point of view of Jesus(pbuh) as well. So now let me state that - one more time for you. Every Muslim believes Jesus(pbuh) Christ to be a real Person sent by God Almighty who was born of virgin Mary(pbuh) and who performed many miracles. We also believe that the Jews conspired to kill him but God took him up instead and he did not die or get crucified. Finally, we are waiting for his 2nd coming. So in light of all
that if there exists some prophecies in the OT foretelling Jesus's(pbuh) arrival (just like Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) has been foretold in OT/NT), I am not sure why Muslims in general would have any problem with that unless the
passages you are stating in support of that doesn't make sense at all or does not fit the description etc.

Now let me explain why Isaiah 53 doesn't prove what you are trying to prove - that the prophecy in this passage is about a man(Jesus) to come who would die for the sins of the mankind. Even if I don't accept the Jewish view of this
passage being talked about Israel, just a plain reading from Isaiah 52:13 through Isaiah 53 reveals few things that does not match the person of Jesus(pbuh). Here are a few of those for you ....













That's why I mentioned to you that this is the best you could come up with ? Typical Christian apologetic attempt to fit Jesus(pbuh) into some passages of OT where it clearly doesn't fit in any unambiguous manner. Nice try though. Now you can feel free to blame your embarrassingly poor apologetic on the Imams.

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There's certianly answers out there for the issues you've raised. Often but not always they will involve the idea of context and how it should be properly used. Believe it or not, nothing you've brought up is some groundbreaking insight on the subject. These same debates have been going on between Christians and Muslims since the inception of your religion. If you're genuinely interested in reading some Christian answers to these questions I can try to find some websites that I feel provide what's appropriate. Maybe I was crazy for even thinking this, but I wanted to hear someone talk about these passages like they weren't paraphrasing an apologetic. I can promise you that you offer no new insight on these passages, NOTHING that we haven't heard 1,000,000 times before. I'm just not interested in putting the time into this unless you're going to share with me something that sounds like you put sincere thought into. You are not a robot. If you honestly read what I asked I know you'll have something pop into your head that dare I say, ISN'T found on an Islamic website. Let's make it an exercise in critical thinking for the both of us. I'll be happy to read a selection of your choosing from the Koran and put some sincere thought into a response. Notice I've only shared my first impressions of the Koran along with my general observation that the entire religion is based on the revelation that one man claimed to receive from an angel claiming to be Gabriel. I shared that it was only later that I tried to read Western and/or Christian commentaries on it and noticed that some of my opinions were shared by others. I'm not running to websites to pull arguments as to why it isn't the word of God. Consider how you would would feel if you were trying to talk to someone about a subject that you've spent YEARS studying including apologetics defending your particular viewpoint as well as the opposition's and the person you're trying to talk to basically hasn't studied it at all apart from a few apologetic websites supporting what he says is his opinion on it, yet this person is trying to still speak authoritatively on this subject? Would you really feel compelled to put a ton of effort in responding to objections about material that this person really hasn't read or put more than a minimal amount of effort thinking about? No you wouldn't. I know exactly how much time you've put into thinking about the Bible based on everything you've said in this thread. Only an idiot wouldn't be able to figure it out. Maybe if you were a Muslim who'd clearly done his homework ahead of time, meaning you would've actually read the relevant parts of the Bible as well as spent a reasonable amount of time thinking about it demonstrated by evidence of clear and coherent critical thinking I might feel more compelled to argue these points. The fact that I haven't simply ignored you shows that I'm genuinely interested to hear your well thought out opinion. And out of curiosity, who do you think fits the prophecy in Isaiah 53 along with the some 40 other prophecies I mentioned like being born in Bethlehem, the soldier gambling for his cloths, the price set for his betrayal etc.? Also, you don't think nails hammered into the hands and feet would cause some bruises? I'd also ask you, regarding the reliability of the NT, let's assume for a second that the scholars who claim it is 99.5% intact are actually correct, how would you then feel about the message contained inside? It's worth considering that this should be an easy claim to verify as the evidence is there for all to see. We should also consider that Christians have put BY FAR the most amount of time into studying the

So you know I'm not pulling your leg about my perception of the amount of effort you put into critically thinking about your argument I'm going to demonstrate a couple places on here that just aren't well thought out.

loverOfTruth said:

First, let's examine what are the signs of a false Prophet according to the Bible and see if Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) fits into that description or not.

1) Matthew 24: 4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) certainly does not fit the description of the false prophet given by Jesus(pbuh) here. Why not ? First of all, neither Muslims nor Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) ever claimed he was the Christ/Messiah, that title was never given to him in the Quran, the term Christ/Messiah is only given to Jesus(pbuh) in the Quran. Secondly, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) never came in Jesus’ name; Muhammad(pbuh) came in Allah’s(God) name and that's why every chapter in the Qur'an starts with 'IN THE NAME OF Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful'.

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Guess what? not all false prophets claim to be the messiah. I can show you several cases of this in the Bible. Nor did I ever say Mohammed claimed to be the messiah.

loverOfTruth said:

2) Mark 13:21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) certainly does not fit the description of the false prophet given by Jesus(pbuh) here. Why not ? Once again neither Muslims nor Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) ever claimed he was the Christ/Messiah. The next description Jesus(pbuh) gives is that the false prophet will perform several great signs and wonders to deceive
people. Even though Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) did perform some miracles in his life time, that wasn't his forte unlike some former Prophets such as Moses(pbuh) etc. In fact, the pagans accused Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) of not performing great miracles and signs since he did not go around everyday performing miracles, and doing great wonders. This is what the Dajjal (anti-Christ) will do. So either way, the Prophet Muhammad does not match that description.

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your point is that Mohammed did perferm some miracles but not as many as other prophets. This is an attempt to address something that I never said in the first place: that Mohammed claimed to be the messiah. Also, the verse doen't say that EVERY false prophet will perform miracles. As I said, we can see pictures of false prophets throughout the Bible. Yes, some perform signs but their defining characteristic is that they pretend to hear from God. All I did was address your first two attempts to make a point in this post. I could go on and on.

I will also address your third attempt in this thread because i think it's important to clarify.

loverOfTruth said:

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3)1 John 4: 1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the anti christ, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) certainly does not fit the description of the false prophet given by Jesus(pbuh) here rather he perfectly fits the description of the true prophet. Why ? Note that the person who confesses that Jesus(pbuh) is the Christ, is from God. Those who do not confess that Jesus(pbuh) is the Christ are the anti-Christ. Therefore, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is from God since Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) did confess that Jesus(pbuh) is the Christ/Messiah; and he never said that Jesus(pbuh) is NOT the Christ as can be clearly seen from the Holy Qur'an:

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This isn't a matter of just acknowledging that a man named Jesus walked the Earth in the name of God. Even the Devil acknowledges that. It's a matter of defining what it is to be the Christ. If Jesus is truly the Lord and is worthy of worship then the Devil/false prophets will preach any doctrine which puts Jesus below someone else in order to make him unworthy. Calling him the "Christ" but using a false definition of what it means to be the "Christ" still consititutes a denial, though a lie that is a little more sophisticated that just saying "Jesus isn't the Christ"

-Peacemaker- said:

So you know I'm not pulling your leg about my perception of the amount of effort you put into critically thinking about your argument I'm going to demonstrate a couple places on here that just aren't well thought out.

Guess what? not all false prophets claim to be the messiah. I can show you several cases of this in the Bible. Nor did I ever say Mohammed claimed to be the messiah.

your point is that Mohammed did perferm some miracles but not as many as other prophets. This is an attempt to address something that I never said in the first place: that Mohammed claimed to be the messiah. Also, the verse doen't say that EVERY false prophet will perform miracles. As I said, we can see pictures of false prophets throughout the Bible. Yes, some perform signs but their defining characteristic is that they pretend to hear from God. All I did was address your first two attempts to make a point in this post. I could go on and on.

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Still ... all I hear is vain talk - don't see any scriptural evidence.
I showed you from the Bible that ...
#1 Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) does not fit the description of a false prophet according to Jesus'(pbuh) statements and
#2 Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was foretold in the Bible according to both Moses'(pbuh) and Jesus'(pbuh) statement.

If you want to counter my argument, show me some unambiguous statements of Moses(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh) from the Bible that proves otherwise.

-Peacemaker- said:

I will also address your third attempt in this thread because i think it's important to clarify.

This isn't a matter of just acknowledging that a man named Jesus walked the Earth in the name of God. Even the Devil acknowledges that. It's a matter of defining what it is to be the Christ. If Jesus is truly the Lord and is worthy of worship then the Devil/false prophets will preach any doctrine which puts Jesus below someone else in order to make him unworthy. Calling him the "Christ" but using a false definition of what it means to be the "Christ" still consititutes a denial, though a lie that is a little more sophisticated that just saying "Jesus isn't the Christ"

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You are free to add words to the scripture to make it fit with your presupposed views - but the scripture does not say that. All it says is that the spirit has to acknowledge that Jesus Christ in flesh(the human) has come from God. And no - I am not using a false definition for 'christ' - all it means is 'anointed'. So you are the one adding 'divinity' to the meaning here.

Christ (/kraɪst/) (ancient Greek: Χριστός, Christós, meaning 'anointed') is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîa&#7717, the Messiah. [1]
Christ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

-Peacemaker- said:

I will also address your third attempt in this thread because i think it's important to clarify.




This isn't a matter of just acknowledging that a man named Jesus walked the Earth in the name of God. Even the Devil acknowledges that. It's a matter of defining what it is to be the Christ. If Jesus is truly the Lord and is worthy of worship then the Devil/false prophets will preach any doctrine which puts Jesus below someone else in order to make him unworthy. Calling him the "Christ" but using a false definition of what it means to be the "Christ" still consititutes a denial, though a lie that is a little more sophisticated that just saying "Jesus isn't the Christ"

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Jesus gave an outline to recognize True Prophets. He said you know them by their Fruits.
So, what did Jesus mean by "Their Fruits"?

InvestigateTruth said:

Jesus gave an outline to recognize True Prophets. He said you know them by their Fruits.
So, what did Jesus mean by "Their Fruits"?

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Actually he said looking at the fruit is how one judges the merits of anything or anyone, not just prophets. "A tree is known by its fruits".

-Peacemaker- said:

Actually he said looking at the fruit is how one judges the merits of anything or anyone, not just prophets. "A tree is known by its fruits".

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So, a false prophet must have bad fruits? or is it possible for a false prophet to have good fruits?

InvestigateTruth said:

So, a false prophet must have bad fruits? or is it possible for a false prophet to have good fruits?

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I think I know where you're going with this. I think what you're hinting at is that is a prophet teaches "love God and be nice to people" then he must be o.k.. The fundamental question is one of "justification". How are we justified? Is it simply by following the law? Certainly even the most virtuous people have broken the commandments. So is there a standard of imperfection that God is going to let people get by with? The concept of justifcation by faith is nothing new. The Scriptures say that Abraham was justified because he believed God when he was told that his decendents would be as numerous as the sand on the beach even though he was like 100 years old. Christians simply believe that Jesus represent the manifestation of God that we must have faith in order to be justified. Keep in mind that we also believe that he represents the most complete picture we have of what God looks like (John 14:9). Now I should clarify that this is an orthodox/traditional perspective. There are Christians who are universalists though I believe they're totally unscriptural in this belief.

Consider verses of Jesus like:
<H3>

New International Version (NIV)

John 14:9

</H3>New International Version (NIV)

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


John 14:6

New International Version (NIV)

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


It's true you'll find apologetics arguing why this is a bad interpretation. I haven't read one that didn't sound convoluted to my ears however.

loverOfTruth said:

You are free to add words to the scripture to make it fit with your presupposed views - but the scripture does not say that. All it says is that the spirit has to acknowledge that Jesus Christ in flesh(the human) has come from God. And no - I am not using a false definition for 'christ' - all it means is 'anointed'. So you are the one adding 'divinity' to the meaning here.

Christ (/kra&#618;st/) (ancient Greek: &#935;&#961;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#972;&#962;, Christós, meaning 'anointed') is a translation of the Hebrew &#1502;&#1464;&#1513;&#1460;&#1473;&#1497;&#1495;&#1463; (M&#257;&#353;îa&#7717, the Messiah. [1]
Christ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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The understanding of how language works is just too simplistic here. Word definitions are not static. It would be most accurate to call them a bucket, one that is then filled with meaning. They are defined largely by the context (once again there's that all important concept that we're trying to learn about) in which they are used. For example, the word "Muslim" technically means "submission to God". Why don't all monotheists start calling themselves "Muslims" regardless of whether or not they reject Mohammed? After all, we all believe we are submitting to God. Why is it probably a bad idea? Because in the context of life in a world populated by countless religions, "Muslim" has come to define a particular monotheistic viewpoint. So it is with words like "Christ". We must examine them in the context in which they are used, not just run to some dictionary. Of course this can be a laborous process as it actually requires people to do WORK and THINK.