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Genesis 1:1

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Sounds like the Hebrew Bible creation story to me.

The Creator made the physical world by restricting the flow of Spirit. This is the same as the singularity that sparked the big bang, but I admit that I, nor anyone else, fully understands what happened there. It couldn't exist because the physical world is only an illusion caused by being restricted from receiving the full light.


How do you just make stuff up out of the blue and your own personal hypothesis?

"The Creator made the physical world by restricting the flow of Spirit."

What religion says that?

"This is the same as the singularity that sparked the big bang"

We don't know for a fact a singulartiy caused the bang for one, its just that if you condense all the energy and matter its probably what you would get.

" It couldn't exist because the physical world is only an illusion caused by being restricted from receiving the full light."

Say what? What full light? Light is photons.

"physical world is only an illusion"

What if you jumped off the Brooklyn bridge, what would happen?
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
:facepalm:


embarrassing really

I never came here to please immature masses.

How do you just make stuff up out of the blue and your own personal hypothesis?

I try not to. I mostly take from years of studying mysticism, spirituality, and science.

"The Creator made the physical world by restricting the flow of Spirit."

What religion says that?

Mysticism says that. It's all symbolic and metaphorical, no Being ever actually did such a thing.

"This is the same as the singularity that sparked the big bang"

We don't know for a fact a singulartiy caused the bang for one, its just that if you condense all the energy and matter its probably what you would get.

We don't really know many things. The "spark" is more important than the word singularity. Something happened, I can be broader like that if you prefer.

" It couldn't exist because the physical world is only an illusion caused by being restricted from receiving the full light."

Say what? What full light? Light is photons.

Metaphor, stupid slip up on my part, I should stay more consistent for those less informed. By Light I meant Spirit, not actual light. It's a kabbalistic term, I'm not really sure why I chose to use it actually.

"physical world is only an illusion"

What if you jumped off the Brooklyn bridge, what would happen?

Chances are that my physical body would be in quite bad shape, resulting in 'death'. Death only of a useless vessel that does more harm than good in my case. As for the soul, can't destroy energy. Basic physics right there.
 
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1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
your creating your own interpretation of scripture your completely ignorant about.

It is meant to be interpreted... that is the point of interpretation. Not everything is going to be handed to you if there truly is something divine beyond the physical.

its not about pleasing the masses
Yes, I suppose since you know me so well that you know I am ignorant of scripture. I mean, besides the fact that I have been taught it since birth as a Jew by blood, or that I have studied systems related to it, or that I dedicated my life to mysticism rather than materialism, or that..... You know me perfectly well! :facepalm:

The OP was clearly looking for interpretation and not historical fact, once again.
If you hope to learn anything from the Bible how do you open the combination lock of different definitions?
Now, although I now agree such threads should probably be in scripture debates, I apologize if I do not accept scripture at face value, nor do I think that it is all based on history of the times. Many myths through history were not based on explaining historical things, but other things including creation.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
What is it, then? It's certainly not science, history, or parable.

It's a fact.

You are not your own handiwork.
Unlike other chemical reactions....there's something more going on...
in your head.

So how much denial are you up for?
Will you go as far as to say there is no life after death?
If so your rebuttal is terminal.

If you say there is life after death....
There is much more to this discussion than deciding to say...'myth'.

So many copies of the human form...and that form does what?
It produces a unique spirit.

Now it does seem more than chemistry, when the topic of Man comes up.
We know we are different from all other animals.
Wanna deny it?

And the nature of substance still eludes us.
(Yes I watch science documentaries.....I love science)

And denying the existence of an Almighty leads where?
Eternal darkness.
No form of light follows anyone into the grave.

If you don't want to deal with God....you don't have to.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
you have already admitted your completely ignorant to how Genesis was created, so you really dont have a clue if its a myth or not.


But it is a myth despite your lack of education on the subject.


It is a myth outlawed from public schools, while evolution is taught worldwide as higher education.

I have admitted nothing...other than I believe in God.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Yes, I suppose since you know me so well that you know I am ignorant of scripture. I mean, besides the fact that I have been taught it since birth as a Jew by blood, or that I have studied systems related to it, or that I dedicated my life to mysticism rather than materialism, or that..... You know me perfectly well! :facepalm:

The OP was clearly looking for interpretation and not historical fact, once again.


That has nothing to do with the scholarships done on Genesis.

genesis is mythical piece's compiled at different times over hundreds of years.

you have made it very clear your ignorant to the work.


Not everything is going to be handed to you if there truly is something divine beyond the physical.

as far as im concerned there is nothing beyond the physical.

science also backs this.


you have absolutely nothing to base your guessing on, as to where shcolarships know and understand the mythical content your grasping at
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
having faith in something that may not be there, does not qualify you as having a complete understanding that can only be interpreted as "your way"

I'm not asking you to follow me...

But I am sure you understand and your denial is noted.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
That has nothing to do with the scholarships done on Genesis.

genesis is mythical piece's compiled at different times over hundreds of years.

Thank you for the obvious, and for using it to prove my point. It is open to interpretation as there are numerous writers.

you have made it very clear your ignorant to the work.
Which work are you talking about? Genesis itself? Or the work on interpretations? Or what...

as far as im concerned there is nothing beyond the physical.
Well that is your problem, not mine. More power to you, just don't harm others. Although, I find it interesting that you harass mystics and theists continuously on this site simply because you disagree with them. If you feel your beliefs are unstable, there are easier ways to confirm them or disprove them than simply attacking others.

science also backs this.
Incorrect. Science helps us understand the physical, it does not prove that all that exists is physical.

you have absolutely nothing to base your guessing on, as to where shcolarships know and understand the mythical content your grasping at
I don't think you have the slightest understanding of what mysticism is. There is not a set path in mysticism, it is not dogmatic and blind. I have studied these concepts for quite a while, and your only arguments are ad hominem fallacies and spouting out irrelevant information. As you seem to have no understanding of mysticism, and I speak as a mystic, there is no need to further deal with this childish and useless form of arguing (not to mention life is too short, and sometimes immaturity gets me far too upset than it should be, something I am working on).
 
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yochai50

Member
false and you completely ignore the polytheistic past of ancient hebrews.

El was his own father deity that originated before ancient hebrews existed. people who migrated to Israel in the north used El as their primary deity, A Mesopotamian deity


Actually, you could say it the other way around just as easily. If you know Oral Torah/Midrash well enough, you'd realize that this is a valid claim within the framework of textual/religious exegesis. The claim is on behalf of Midrashic accounts reaches a general consensus stating that everyone knew who G-d was and that He created the world. Enosh was considered responsible for starting idolatry in that he began to worship the sun and different constellations as different manifestations of G-d. Within a few generations from Enosh (who lived to 905 years), idolatry became widespread and they were making up new religions completely. So, you could actually argue otherwise from a religious standpoint and present an entirely new set of questions which haven't been checked into so much.

I don't expect you to take that seriously seeing as your an atheist and aren't interested in verifying the stories of the Torah as true because your already unquestionably "more rational" conclusions have ruled out the possibility it can't be anything more than fairy tales. But, since the claim(s) made in the Midrash can't offhand be checked easily, you're very unlikely to be able to say otherwise on any other rational grounds than the notion that you think it's BS intuitively. So, before you start referencing middle aged Babylonian religions to deface the Torah and assuming we stole their religion - perhaps you should check both sides of the argument.


But, whether you agree the above comments or not, regardless of the semitic word elohim having implication to multiple gods and to other foreign gods - it also means judges. If you assume that the Torah was an attempt to reform neo-babylonian religions into monotheism through a series of authors, it makes more sense to approach it from another angle than refuting the word elohim. Simply because if you assume the author was trying to rewrite religion and convey a new message (since monotheism in this form would be radically different in terms of theology than any other religion at the time), you should also assume that the author wasn't just writing down words without specific meaning, but rather used certain words to convey a specific message. That is a very rational assumption to make in everyone's book - atheist or not. Therefor, it is not unreasonable to assume that the use of describing G-d with the word Elokim is not to convey a specific message.

One of the biggest flaws about documentary hypothesis is it often relies on common language to deduct through linguistics an original source without taking into account what Midrash/Talmud says on the assumption that they're only later developments. Which is a very big stretch to make and an even bigger reason as to why it remains known as "Documentary Hypothesis", not "Documentary Theory". So, before you shoot down other interpetrations, go learn the Hebrew language. Because even if you don't believe in the Torah being divine, it is not out of the question to assume just as easily that the word usage was alluding to a matter of judgement and severity.

Additionally, even amongst biblical critics it is very questionable as to the origins of the Hebrews and where they actually took their religious sources from. Certain things they tend to agree on more universally, but there's a lot of holes in their claims. Again, "documentary hypothesis", not "theory". So don't assert your shtuss as authoritative if no one agrees on the matter anyways. If you want more accurate answers, look to what we've always said instead of relying solely on comparative religion to self verify your already contested claims which conveniently suit your agenda.

Next please.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Actually, you could say it the other way around just as easily.

false

If you know Oral Torah/Midrash well enough, you'd realize that this is a valid claim within the framework of textual/religious exegesis.


scholarships bring reality to myth


Within a few generations from Enosh (who lived to 905 years),

you dont think this is a bit absurd???


since the claim(s) made in the Midrash can't offhand be checked easily,


false again.

many can be checked with anthropology


Additionally, even amongst biblical critics it is very questionable as to the origins of the Hebrews

False again

moses has ZERO historicity

and there was never a enslaved race of hebrews in Egypt

We know for a fact where and how ancient hebrews formed from previous civilizations

Mostly Cannanite, many Mesopotamian's some nomadic and semi nomadic tribes as well as some Egyptians ALL as many civilizations governments collapsed at the end of the late bronze age.


please learn history if you choose to debate it.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
outhouse
False again

moses has ZERO historicity

and there was never a enslaved race of hebrews in Egypt

We know for a fact where and how ancient hebrews formed from previous civilizations

Mostly Cannanite, many Mesopotamian's some nomadic and semi nomadic tribes as well as some Egyptians ALL as many civilizations governments collapsed at the end of the late bronze age.


please learn history if you choose to debate it.

The Jews were slaves in Egypt, just in a different respect. "Slavery" was not what we think of now. The so-called slaves of Egypt lived as normal workers. We have evidence of this in the Valley of the Kings. I think that's what it is called. As for Moses, the exact stories, as all, are symbolic and metaphorical, a concept you must come to understand to debate religion. But this does not mean it was not based on a historical person. In fact, science has explained how many of the 10 plagues could, in fact, have happened and been misinterpreted as well as the splitting of the Red Sea, simply by rethinking where the exact events tooks place.

If you are so commited to truth, you must bypass confirmation bias, logical fallacy, as well as ego. You cannot just look at things from one side. Then we can have intelligent and useful discussion.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It's a fact.
But it's not fact. Too many errors to be fact. The earth is not a disc, nor is the sky a rigid dome upon which are placed the sun, moon, and stars.
You are not your own handiwork.
Unlike other chemical reactions....there's something more going on...
in your head.

So how much denial are you up for?
Will you go as far as to say there is no life after death?
If so your rebuttal is terminal.

If you say there is life after death....
There is much more to this discussion than deciding to say...'myth'.

So many copies of the human form...and that form does what?
It produces a unique spirit.

Now it does seem more than chemistry, when the topic of Man comes up.
We know we are different from all other animals.
Wanna deny it?

And the nature of substance still eludes us.
(Yes I watch science documentaries.....I love science)

And denying the existence of an Almighty leads where?
Eternal darkness.
No form of light follows anyone into the grave.

If you don't want to deal with God....you don't have to.
None of this refutes that the account is mythic. In fact, it points to that fact.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
But it's not fact. Too many errors to be fact. The earth is not a disc, nor is the sky a rigid dome upon which are placed the sun, moon, and stars.

None of this refutes that the account is mythic. In fact, it points to that fact.

I suspect you mistook the intent of the first line.

So what point of denial are you making?
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The Jews were slaves in Egypt, just in a different respect. "Slavery" was not what we think of now. The so-called slaves of Egypt lived as normal workers. We have evidence of this in the Valley of the Kings. I think that's what it is called.
Except that the archaeological record doesn't bear this out. Either in Egypt or in Canaan.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
The Jews were slaves in Egypt, just in a different respect

there was never a jewish slave in Egypt

you and everyone else have ZERO evidence of such.


The so-called slaves of Egypt lived as normal workers.

they were not slaves then now were they!

Egypt had slaves, they took prisoners and turned them into slaves all the time. We have very clear records of this.

BUT ZERO for a enslvaved race of hebrews


Then we can have intelligent and useful discussion.

it takes historical knowledge for this, not a lack of it.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
there was never a jewish slave in Egypt

you and everyone else have ZERO evidence of such.




they were not slaves then now were they!

Egypt had slaves, they took prisoners and turned them into slaves all the time. We have very clear records of this.

BUT ZERO for a enslvaved race of hebrews




it takes historical knowledge for this, not a lack of it.

I don't see the need for history.
If you really believe Genesis to be a myth...discuss it as it read.
Leave the history somewhere else.
Don't want to deal with spiritual notions?....
Are you hoping for the last word to make yourself feel better?
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
This thread seemed to have gone the normal way for theological discussions here. Instead of talking about the myth, the meaning behind it, a few people instead want to talk about how it has no historicity, or it is taken from other myths. Big deal. That is completely missing the point, and I believe is probably just evidence that one really has no knowledge on the subject.

Genesis 1:1, taken out of context, means basically nothing. It means even less when one doesn't even have a basic knowledge of the language one is reading it in. Sure, the dictionary may have multiple definitions of a word. What does that matter though? One should have enough comprehension of English (since we are communicating in English), to be able to understand the few words in Genesis 1:1. An analysis of the individual words is not going to give a deeper meaning. It will simply waste time.

I would really like to see a deeper discussion on the subject. There are some very qualified individuals on this site how can precipitate that.
 
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