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16 year old girl commits suiccide over forced marriage with her rapist

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
If we're going to be able to tell what is and isn't part of Islam, then I think we need to know what Islam is.

So... what is Islam? What are the criteria to distinguish things that are authentically "Muslim" from things that aren't?

anything that has a basis in islam and doesn't contradict islamic teachings (Qur'an, hadith and sunnah) is islamic. anything else is not islamic.

and ssainhu did post 2 links explaining this matter about the rape victim getting punished as being non-islamic and having no basis in islam. didn't you read the links?
 

Marble

Rolling Marble
No offence intended, but allow me the question:
Why do things that are against the Islamic law happen so often in Islamic countries?
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
No offence intended, but allow me the question:
Why do things that are against the Islamic law happen so often in Islamic countries?

there isn't an Islamic state anywhere in the world at the moment. the last Islamic state was the Ottoman Empire which collapsed in the early 20th century.

an Islamic state is Ruled by the most educated man (islamic wise) whom we call a Khalif and such a state has no laws other than full Shariah law. there aren't any man made laws part of the justice system.

many middle eastern countries have copied and implemented parts of the Islamic Shariah but that doesn't make them islamic states. if i am not mistaken, England too has copied parts of the Shariah law. is England an Islamic state?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
anything that has a basis in islam and doesn't contradict islamic teachings (Qur'an, hadith and sunnah) is islamic. anything else is not islamic.
Wait: so for something to be Islamic, it has to be Islamic? How is this not circular?

and ssainhu did post 2 links explaining this matter about the rape victim getting punished as being non-islamic and having no basis in islam. didn't you read the links?
I saw a link and quote from her; is that what you mean?

I didn't read the link, no. I've tried it a few times, but it won't load - I keep on getting a "server busy" error. Hopefully they sort out their problems so I can read it.

As for the quote, I did read it, but I have a few issues with it:

- it seems to contradict other hadiths I've seen (though whether they're authentic or not, I'm not sure... just as I'm not sure of the authenticity of the hadith ssainhu quoted) that suggest things like how it's okay to capture women as prisoners of war and make them your wives.

- we've had plenty of Muslims come on here and quote seemingly endless hadiths and Quranic verses in support of what I'd consider very negative views toward women. Even if there isn't a hadith that says "make victims marry their rapists" directly, I do suspect that this general attitude expressed in other aspects of Islam played a role here.

- I don't approach this issue assuming that what is "Islamic" is necessarily one coherent or consistent set of rules. Instead, I think of it more as a body of thought, and I allow for the possibility that this body of thought contains dissenting views. If some people's view of Islam includes a prohibition on rapists marrying their victims, fine: I can acknowledge that this position is part of Islam... however, I don't think that this necessarily means that the view that it's okay is necessarily not part of Islam.

I think it might be worth pointing out again that I don't see Islam (or any other religion) as handed down from God in some "authentic" form. I think that it, like all other religions, is defined by the beliefs and actions of adherents. If some Muslims do awful things in the name of God, I consider this part of Islam... though by the same token, when other Muslims condemn those actions and declare them to be against their view of God, I consider this part of Islam, too. Both views are part of that set of ideas, IMO.

Also, something that I think is worth considering (and I think probably is involved here to a certain extent): I think that Islam provides a bridge between cultures. People who live in places as diverse and separated as Algeria, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia and Canada are connected by their shared Islamic faith. In some respects, this is cool: it allows for cultural diffusion of positive things from one place to another. However, it also allows for diffusion of negative aspects of culture as well. IMO, if not for Islam, ideas like this one wouldn't spread as easily beyond their origin into the larger Muslim world. Is this Islam's "fault"? I dunno.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
No offence intended, but allow me the question:
Why do things that are against the Islamic law happen so often in Islamic countries?

Government systems use religion to control and shape culture and societies. If Islamic law is skewed to control people, the results will be ugly. And that's what we'll see. We won't see the happy Muslim woman or the men who do abide by a peaceful version of Islamic law. We'll see what's highlighted...the negatives, which I believe are greatly influenced by culture and greatly driven by various interpretations of Islamic law.
 
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Enlighten

Well-Known Member
And it seems the idea that the girl should be married with her violator came from the prosecutor.

Moroccans call for end to rape-marriage laws - Africa - Al Jazeera English

Just when you think this world can't get any worse, bang there it is.

It's bad enough she was forced to marry her rapist he then had to further humiliate her by dragging her down the street by her hair!!

Normally I would say my thoughts are with this girls family but
Local media has reported that the girl complained to her family about her mistreatment at the hands of the man who raped her, but they disowned her perhaps prompting her to take her own life.
makes me think they are just as bad.
 

bribrius

Member
"A government study last year found that about 25 per cent of Moroccan women have been sexually assaulted at least once in their lives."

yeah, lets give the freedoms we have in the united states, where our percentage of sexually assaulted women are even higher and we have a million latch key kids and welfare recipients....

:rolleyes:
I wouldnt condone rape but once it was done it was done. jail or having to pay and marry, being responsible for the other person the rest of their life are pretty formidable punishments. After the orginal rape transgression it was in the fathers hands. Problem i think is with the father. I believe the father has the discretion to approve or disapprove of the marriage and is supposed to take a active involvment in that. The situation should not have turned abusive, at all. That just carried on further the evil of the original act of rape. This was partly based on religous doctrine perhaps, but lacked the empathy and respect and love that should have went with it.

It is very unfortunate for the girl. The entire situation disheartening.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I actually just read an article on this in a journal a few weeks back. The tradition here is simply a cultural one. It is not a religious one. It is one that actually goes back quite some time.

The cultures that this practice developed in, women were deemed inferior. They were seen as property, and property in which one could gain from (either monetarily, or through family ties which could be used to gain power and/or land (this is also a reason why daughters were married off to their uncles. The land/money/etc stayed in the family, and the uncle would be able to provide for the woman as he had already made something of himself)). They were still deemed human, but inferior.

So one wanted to protect their property, as well as their family. When a woman was raped, she became damaged goods, who most likely would end up having to prostitute themselves in order to just get by. There would be small chance of her finding a husband who would take her. So, she would become a "burden" on the father, or end up as a prostitute. Instead of allowing that, the rapist would then be forced to take her as his wife. Thus, he would be the one who became "burdened," and the woman would find some sort of protection.

Now, there is an obvious problem, which is that one could just rape a woman he wanted, and thus get her as his own. But it wouldn't have been the usual case, as women were often promised to individuals at an early age. So the rapist would often face death, or fines for the "damages." Which really doesn't fix the problem.

The law was put into place though to protect the woman. There would have been better ways to approach it though, much better ways. However, in order to deal with the problem, one has to fix the underlying problem. And that is the view that women are property, or inferior. That would also help solve the problem of child marriage.
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
When I went googling to find out more about this, I got many more results than just this story; there were other stories about inicidents in Afghanistan and Pakistan, not just Morocco.

At what point do we conclude that these similar events share a common cause and aren't just separate, independently caused by things in those specific cultures?

And if we do conclude that these events have a common cause, what other factors are common to all these nations but Islam?

If we're going to be able to tell what is and isn't part of Islam, then I think we need to know what Islam is.

So... what is Islam? What are the criteria to distinguish things that are authentically "Muslim" from things that aren't?

No offence intended, but allow me the question:
Why do things that are against the Islamic law happen so often in Islamic countries?

I hope I can address these questions with a clear head in the morning. I will try and answer this when I am more awake. :) Your questions are legitimate and deserve a more thought-out answer than I can give now.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
England has copied parts of the Sharish law? :cover:

i'm not sure if it has or not, but i read that they were about to implement parts of the shariah law that deal with family issues, like divorce, marriage etc. but i think that was just for muslims and not all of the UK. but like i said 'If i am not mistaken'.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I actually just read an article on this in a journal a few weeks back. The tradition here is simply a cultural one. It is not a religious one. It is one that actually goes back quite some time.
The culture of Morroco is highly influenced by its major religion, Islam. As the principle religion it plays a large role in the country's law and order. And because Islam recognizes much of the old testament, and in particular the book of Deuteronomy, (it is said to contain the prophecy of Mohammed ) it would naturally put stock in Deuteronomy 22:28–29
28 “If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Wait: so for something to be Islamic, it has to be Islamic? How is this not circular?

thats what you asked, what is islamic and what is not. that which is islamic conforms to the teachings of Islam, that which isn't islamic doesn't conform.

if you don't like the answer then you shouldn't have asked the question.



I saw a link and quote from her; is that what you mean?

I didn't read the link, no. I've tried it a few times, but it won't load - I keep on getting a "server busy" error. Hopefully they sort out their problems so I can read it.



As for the quote, I did read it, but I have a few issues with it:

- it seems to contradict other hadiths I've seen (though whether they're authentic or not, I'm not sure... just as I'm not sure of the authenticity of the hadith ssainhu quoted) that suggest things like how it's okay to capture women as prisoners of war and make them your wives.

the war thing isn't part of this thread, if i answer it then you will have more questions and the thread will turn into a war debate.

- we've had plenty of Muslims come on here and quote seemingly endless hadiths and Quranic verses in support of what I'd consider very negative views toward women. Even if there isn't a hadith that says "make victims marry their rapists" directly, I do suspect that this general attitude expressed in other aspects of Islam played a role here.

no it doesn't, you didn't read ssainhus post very well. she also says that the rapist faces the death penalty for his crime. she cannot be forced to marry him nor would she be able to if she willingly wanted. the punishment for rape is death.

- I don't approach this issue assuming that what is "Islamic" is necessarily one coherent or consistent set of rules. Instead, I think of it more as a body of thought, and I allow for the possibility that this body of thought contains dissenting views. If some people's view of Islam includes a prohibition on rapists marrying their victims, fine: I can acknowledge that this position is part of Islam... however, I don't think that this necessarily means that the view that it's okay is necessarily not part of Islam.

so in your view both perspectives are true unless proven wrong? then go to the link below if you don't mind a little read:
Rape in Islam

I think it might be worth pointing out again that I don't see Islam (or any other religion) as handed down from God in some "authentic" form. I think that it, like all other religions, is defined by the beliefs and actions of adherents. If some Muslims do awful things in the name of God, I consider this part of Islam... though by the same token, when other Muslims condemn those actions and declare them to be against their view of God, I consider this part of Islam, too. Both views are part of that set of ideas, IMO.

so if a canadian was to rape a woman it would be unjust for him to get a punishment because his views are just as equal as those who say he should be punished?

Also, something that I think is worth considering (and I think probably is involved here to a certain extent): I think that Islam provides a bridge between cultures. People who live in places as diverse and separated as Algeria, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia and Canada are connected by their shared Islamic faith. In some respects, this is cool: it allows for cultural diffusion of positive things from one place to another. However, it also allows for diffusion of negative aspects of culture as well. IMO, if not for Islam, ideas like this one wouldn't spread as easily beyond their origin into the larger Muslim world. Is this Islam's "fault"? I dunno.

it is not Islams fault and it is not Islam who is the source or reason behind this. Albania, Bosnia and Kosovo are muslim majority countries and are no different to any other muslim majority country. please quote me a link of a case in those 3 countries of the rape victim having been married to her rapist and we'll see just how much Islam is the cause such crimes. it is part of arab culture and not islamic.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
The culture of Morroco is highly influenced by its major religion, Islam. As the principle religion it plays a large role in the country's law and order. And because Islam recognizes much of the old testament, and in particular the book of Deuteronomy, (it is said to contain the prophecy of Mohammed ) it would naturally put stock in Deuteronomy 22:28–29
28 “If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.
Much of the law in Deuteronomy was already present in the culture though, and only later got legitimized further with the religion.

The thing is though, both religions teach against rape. Rape is not a permissible act in either. However, it is something that does happen, and thus, at least Judaism, then made laws concerning rape, and then was added to their laws, which were part of their scripture. These laws were already present in cultures before Judaism though.

It really is not an issue about religion. Religion may legitimize such rulings, if one takes a literalist approach, and ignore later teachings regarding such ideas, but these ideas were already present before hand.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
The culture of Morroco is highly influenced by its major religion, Islam. As the principle religion it plays a large role in the country's law and order. And because Islam recognizes much of the old testament, and in particular the book of Deuteronomy, (it is said to contain the prophecy of Mohammed ) it would naturally put stock in Deuteronomy 22:28–29
28 “If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.

i already posted explaining that islam hasn't copied the teachings of judaism or christianity.

and if islam is the influence of such crimes, why don't we see the same things happening in Albania, Bosnia and Kosovo?
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
I saw a link and quote from her; is that what you mean?

I didn't read the link, no. I've tried it a few times, but it won't load - I keep on getting a "server busy" error. Hopefully they sort out their problems so I can read it.

here is what the link says:

Does Islam require four witnesses for rape?
Published on: Saturday 09 Dec, 2006
By: administrator

Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi
Does Islam really require four witness for rape victims? This is a common argument used by those who usually attempt to make a false analogy with adultery by inferring from the following Qur’anic injunction:

“And those who accuse chaste women [of adultery] and then do not produce four witnesses — lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient. Except for those who repent thereafter and reform, for indeed Allaah is Forgiving and Merciful.”1

That this myth was repeated by none other than the former Malaysian Prime Minister Tun Dr. Mahathir at an UMNO General Assembly meeting had greatly contributed to the misconception that Islam requires four witnesses for rape:

If four witnesses were to merely watch a woman being raped and not attempt to help her, would they not be regarded as having sinned (for allowing a woman to be raped) and are not be fit to be witnesses?” he said. Under Pas’ hudud also, rape victims would in turn become the accused in the event that she could not make the four witnesses available.

Unfortunately for such people, this fallacy of equivocation has no basis in Islamic jurisdictions and the punishment for rape (which is defined as forced sexual intercourse) is certainly not equivalent to the punishment of adultery. Insha’allah, in what follows we aim to deal with this issue once and for all by breaking it down into several points so as to enable easy understanding.

The claim that rape victims require four witnesses to seek justice for their case is untrue and a false lie propagated by those who either do not have any knowledge in Islamic law or want to “prove” a so-called weakness in the hadd laws. Circumstantial evidence is sufficient and the judge can invoke his judgment based upon takzir (his own discretion).

If a person makes an allegation of adultery against another person (male or female), only then he or she must produce four witnesses to support such an allegation: “And those who accuse chaste women [of adultery] and then do not produce four witnesses….”2; otherwise, he or she is guilty of slandering, which is a grave offense in Islam.


To insist that the raped victim must provide witnesses is akin to inflicting further pain on her. If anyone refutes her claim of innocence, the onus is on him to provide evidence, and she may simply deny the claim by making a solemn oath, thus clearing herself in public.

This is based on what the Prophet Muhammad (P) had once said:

“The onus to provide evidence falls on the one who makes a claim, and the one who denies (the same) can absolve himself or herself by making a solemn oath to the contrary.”



Further, the Prophet (P) was reported to have said that:

“Allah (T) has pardoned my people for the acts they do by mistake, due to forgetfulness and what they are coerced into doing.”3

An event concerning rape had in fact led towards the Prophet Muhammad (P) punishing a rapist without demanding or even hinting for four witnesses:

“Narrated Wa’il ibn Hujr: “When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (P) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered [raped] her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That [man] did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (P).

When he [the Prophet] was about to pass sentence, the man who [actually] had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He [the Prophet] said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words [Abu Dawud said: "meaning the man who was seized"], and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: “Stone him to death.“4

It should also be noted that it was related by Ibn Abi Shaybah through Târiq b. Shahab that a woman accused with adultery was taken to Caliph `Umar. The woman pleaded that she was asleep and woke up to find the man over her. `Umar released the woman.5

Based on the above sayings of the Prophet (P) and the events associated with it, the jurist Ibn Qudamah had stated as follows in his book al-Mughnî:

“If a woman becomes pregnant without having a husband or a master, she may not be punished and, in stead, she should be asked about it, if she claimed that she was coerced into it or that she committed adultery under dubious circumstances, or if she simply does not confess adultery then she will not be punished. This is the saying of Abu Hanîfah and al-Shâfi`î, because she may be pregnant as a result of a forceful intercourse or dubious circumstances. Punishment will be abandoned in case suspicion exists. It is well known that a woman could become pregnant without committing the real intercourse. The woman may become pregnant if sperm is manually inserted into her vagina. This would explain how a virgin becomes pregnant.”

We can now see that a testimony of the raped woman suffices in exonerating her from adultery and that Islam recognises the crime of rape and that a raped woman will not be punished for such a crime that was inflicted upon her.

So what really is the punishment for rape?

According to the majority opinion of Muslim scholars, rape is considered as hirabah (highway robbery or terrorism) and hence rapists are to be punished according to the hirabah laws, as highlighted in the Qur’an. This of course is as opposed to what the Bible teaches about the punishment for rape. For example, we read that:

“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.”6

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Is there any justice in forcing the raped woman to marry her rapist and bound her to him for the rest of his life? Further we also read another example that the Bible teaches that the rape victim should be punished with death:

“If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor’s wife.”7

This injunction of course leaves little to the imagination. We will leave the reader to form their own conclusions. We hope that the above explanation that was given had made it clear that in Islam, rape victims are not required to “bring four witnesses” as alleged and that Judeo-Christianity has a much harsher law for rape when compared to Islam.

Does Islam require four witnesses for rape?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
i already posted explaining that islam hasn't copied the teachings of judaism or christianity.
And I didn't say that it copied the teachings of Judaism or Christianity. All I meant to imply is that Muslims regard the book of Deuteronomy, among others, as one of the revelations of god. And unless the Qur'an specifically addresses Deuteronomy 22:28–29, it stands as written.

and if islam is the influence of such crimes, why don't we see the same things happening in Albania, Bosnia and Kosovo?
Probably for the same reason we have thousands of Christian denominations, people pick and choose what they wish to believe and act upon. I'm not saying the rapists necessarily did what they did because of what is written in Deuteronomy, but because what they did it is almost exactly as described in the passage the coincidence is far more likely to be the case than not.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
And I didn't say that it copied the teachings of Judaism or Christianity. All I meant to imply is that Muslims regard the book of Deuteronomy, among others, as one of the revelations of god. And unless the Qur'an specifically addresses Deuteronomy 22:28–29, it stands as written.

Probably for the same reason we have thousands of Christian denominations, people pick and choose what they wish to believe and act upon. I'm not saying the rapists necessarily did what they did because of what is written in Deuteronomy, but because what they did it is almost exactly as described in the passage the coincidence is far more likely to be the case than not.

muslims do not believe or follow the teachings of the bible or torah. so your example/point is invalid.
 
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