Does the god who supposedly created this world deserve to be worshipped?

JMorris said:

because there are so many atheists out there making your life as a christian hard, isnt it? really trying to get those churches shut down, arent we? a martyrs complex sure comes in handy, dosent it?

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Angry and uneducated.... fascinating.

Scott1 said:

Angry and uneducated.... fascinating.

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isnt it tho? being from the south you'd think id of ended up being a racist christian fundamentalist. but sometimes generalizations just arent true. guess my parents raised me right after all.

Badran said:

I agree, its not easy to find out (if i understood what you're implying correctly). Which is actually why, amongst other reasons, i think its a terrible idea to meddle in such a way.

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I don't consider supporting my ideological allies in Iraq to be "meddling". My allies WANT my help. And it's my allies that I care about. In Syria people are holding signs, in English, that say "if you do not help us, we will be killed". I'm the sort of guy who tries to respond to such pleas for help.

At what price though? And what if they don't want democracy?

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If they don't want to democratically choose their leader, they don't need to vote. There's no disadvantage I can see to democracy over a sadistic dictator like Saddam.

See, just before you get my intentions the wrong way. I do understand the complexity of the situation, and i do understand its extremely difficult to accomplish freedom for another country, but thats exactly what i'm trying to show you. All what i'm saying and will say is in attempt to point out how the decision of attempting to regulate slavery was made.

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If people want to regulate slavery to make it not as bad as it used to be, and be a step in the right direction, I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is claiming that the sentence "you may buy slaves from neighbouring nations" is the word of God.

What about the rest, the (usually) majority of population who are silent? How can we make such decisions for them?

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How can Saddam make such decisions for them? I consider my decision to support my ideological allies to be preferable to Saddam ordering the rape of women.

Wouldn't it be better then, to just attempt to help those people you mentioned without stepping on the rest, if possible?

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There are millions of people living under state-slavery. You can't just empty every dictatorship of people. The proper thing to do is to replace the dictator.

What if in fact that wasn't possible at the time?

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That's fine. The abolitionists in England couldn't achieve worldwide abolition in their lifetimes either. Just don't claim that a book that authorizes slavery is the word of God.

What i find is a subjugating government is this:

You have listed all your preferred political/economical and/or world views. You're basically doing exactly this: forcing your world view on others.

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I said that that's what you need to do if you want to truly solve the problem. It won't be solved until those worldviews are spread. I didn't say you needed to solve the problem immediately. I specifically said you could half-solve it simply by introducing democracy. Democracy does not mean my worldview. It means the worldview of the people in that country. It is in no way subjugating. It's the least subjugated that you can get.

Note however, that i in fact do not oppose any of those things you listed. In fact, i'm in favor of almost all of them.

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Ok, so work with me on a plan.

I agree, but what you're suggesting isn't exactly that, in my view. At least, the way you want to go about it, will result in a period where such thing will be no where near happening. If you think thats justified since:

1) They were already enslaved/subjugated.

2) In the future things will get better gradually.

Then again i think thats exactly what some of people who regulated slavery were thinking of.

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I don't know. My only real comment is that I believe that on reading such a sentence in the bible, all good people should come to the conclusion "this is not the word of God".

I disagree with your approach, but thats not what i'm arguing here. Here i'm just attempting to get you to possibly understand the position of those people thousands of years ago.

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Their position is that they were men making up a book and calling it "holy".

I agree, at least for certainly many people. But we don't know that they wanted such help and in such a fashion.

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The target population is divided, like all populations. I support my ideological allies in that civil war.

kerravon said:

If people want to regulate slavery to make it not as bad as it used to be, and be a step in the right direction, I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is claiming that the sentence "you may buy slaves from neighbouring nations" is the word of God.

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I disagree with almost of of your politics mate, especially when you consider that slavery for at least the last 500yrs has been a direct result of the capitalist/free market system and not spoils of war as such, but I have to agree with the above.

Does the god who supposedly created this world deserve to be worshipped?

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yes, very much so.

arcanum said:

The older I get the more world weary I become and so i confront this question. This world is a place of tremendous cruelty, misunderstanding, pain, inequality etc...I could go on and on about how bad a place this world really is. So does god who created this mess and placed us here in this very imperfect world really deserve to be worshiped?

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did you have to go through all those years of your life to figure it out that this world isn't a 'perfect dream'? Islam has been teaching us for over 1400 years that this life isn't exactly a paradise. thats the whole purpose. if we all had a billion $ stacked in the back somewhere, had 5 Ferrari's in the garage, a palace, personal cook etc etc. then this life would be very meaningless and again some would worship God and some would not. this life is meant to be 'imperfect' if you want to call it such.

eselam said:

yes, very much so.



did you have to go through all those years of your life to figure it out that this world isn't a 'perfect dream'? Islam has been teaching us for over 1400 years that this life isn't exactly a paradise. thats the whole purpose. if we all had a billion $ stacked in the back somewhere, had 5 Ferrari's in the garage, a palace, personal cook etc etc. then this life would be very meaningless and again some would worship God and some would not. this life is meant to be 'imperfect' if you want to call it such.

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Why, so that we can appreciate what we have to come? Paradise? A fun palace for all (men)? A place where we can now drink wine and have sex with many partners (if we're men)? Is that why people watch their children starve to death (in the Lamborghini, of course)? Is that a valid reason for your god's absolute indifference to the innocent, they'll be able to have lots of sex and wine, after all of that indescribable suffering. All praise.
Woops, only if they are lucky enough to believe in the same god you believe in, I forgot.

CynthiaCypher said:

No suffering doesn't disprove God.
What it proves is that God is either indifferent, powerless or just plain evil.

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I kind of like the gnostic answer on this: That this earth and all it's creatures are the creation of a lesser imperfect deity. The true god of all is beyond this world as he had nothing to do with it's creation in the first place. It makes it little more sense than an all powerful god creating this mess.

arcanum said:

I kind of like the gnostic answer on this: That this earth and all it's creatures are the creation of a lesser imperfect deity. The true god of all is beyond this world as he had nothing to do with it's creation in the first place. It makes it little more sense than an all powerful god creating this mess.

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So what is this "lesser imperfect deity's" powers? He can create a universe and everything in it, but he's just an "idiot savant". He has no idea what he created or what to do with it. Oh dear :biglaugh:

fishy said:

So what is this "lesser imperfect deity's" powers? He can create a universe and everything in it, but he's just an "idiot savant". He has no idea what he created or what to do with it. Oh dear :biglaugh:

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Um they don't claim the lesser deity created the universe, they claim a lesser deity created this earth and all it's creatures. Why does this earth appear to be the handy work of an an all powerful all knowing god to you? Not that I believe that because I don't know what to believe anymore but it is an interesting perspective to consider and would explain a lot.:sarcastic

arcanum said:

Um they don't claim the lesser deity created the universe, they claim a lesser deity created this earth and all it's creatures. Why does this earth appear to be the handy work of an an all powerful all knowing god to you? Not that I believe that because I don't know what to believe anymore but it is an interesting perspective to consider and would explain a lot.:sarcastic

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Or "everything" could be the result of the unimpeachable law of everything.......SNAFU.

CynthiaCypher said:

And do you think the majority of people on this planet live like you?

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The majority of the planet live in coastal areas and on rivers - yeah, bad stuff is gonna happen, cause water don't sit still.

Submission to god is the essence of worship.

Despite being atheist, I always liked that line; I read tao in it. Take it as it is, and smile.

If one means "worship" in the sense of prostration before idols - which seems to be the prerequisite of most religions - then no. If one means, "I'm alive, and it's pretty dang cool," then yeah.

fishy said:

Or "everything" could be the result of the unimpeachable law of everything.......SNAFU.

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...huh?

arcanum said:

...huh?

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SNAFU = situation normal all ****** up. Sorry. :sorry1:

Scott1 said:

Guess I don't agree with your premise... I don't think this world, while imperfect, is a place of cruelty etc etc..

When I hear people whine about floods, famine, etc. I feel their pain, but just don't agree that things like that "tip the scales" towards the world being a bad place.

I personally see that every fraction of a second on this earth is a profound miracle... I'm on a rock spinning in space/a product of billions of years of evolution... all for me to sit on the internet and eat Doritos while chatting with people all over the world from my living room. Even if I were to die a horrific death in the next second of my life, I've been living in this incredible world for over a BILLION seconds... seems to me a pretty good deal.

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Hey Scotty, I guess if the scriptures are to believed then you and I are ******. ie we love our lives, so will lose them. Watcha think?

fishy said:

So what is this "lesser imperfect deity's" powers? He can create a universe and everything in it, but he's just an "idiot savant". He has no idea what he created or what to do with it. Oh dear :biglaugh:

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On the Origin of the World -- The Nag Hammadi Library

Before the consummation of the age, the whole place will shake with great thundering. Then the rulers will be sad, [...] their death. The angels will mourn for their mankind, and the demons will weep over their seasons, and their mankind will wail and scream at their death. Then the age will begin, and they will be disturbed. Their kings will be intoxicated with the fiery sword, and they will wage war against one another, so that the earth is intoxicated with bloodshed. And the seas will be disturbed by those wars. Then the sun will become dark, and the moon will cause its light to cease. The stars of the sky will cancel their circuits. And a great clap of thunder will come out of a great force that is above all the forces of chaos, where the firmament of the woman is situated. Having created the first product, she will put away the wise fire of intelligence and clothe herself with witless wrath. Then she will pursue the gods of chaos, whom she created along with the prime parent. She will cast them down into the abyss. They will be obliterated because of their wickedness. For they will come to be like volcanoes and consume one another until they perish at the hand of the prime parent. When he has destroyed them, he will turn against himself and destroy himself until he ceases to exist.

And their heavens will fall one upon the next and their forces will be consumed by fire. Their eternal realms, too, will be overturned. And his heaven will fall and break in two. His [...] will fall down upon the [...] support them; they will fall into the abyss, and the abyss will be overturned.

The light will [...] the darkness and obliterate it: it will be like something that has never been. And the product to which the darkness had been posterior will dissolve. And the deficiency will be plucked out by the root (and thrown) down into the darkness. And the light will withdraw up to its root. And the glory of the unbegotten will appear. And it will fill all the eternal realm.

When the prophecy and the account of those that are king becomes known and is fulfilled by those who are called perfect, those who - in contrast - have not become perfect in the unbegotten father will receive their glory in their realms and in the kingdoms of the immortals: but they will never enter the kingless realm. For everyone must go to the place from which he has come. Indeed, by his acts and his knowledge, each person will make his (own) nature known.

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Doesn't sound too bad, does it ^^

I also gotta love that the clueless wannabe supreme rulers are basically just called "the deficiency" haha. It does ring true, and wise. Can't help but notice that. Lots of "mistakes made brain" running around, insisting to see our petty BS to the end... paradise will be the ceasing of those efforts I guess, not their consummation.

fulp said:

On the Origin of the World -- The Nag Hammadi Library



Doesn't sound too bad, does it ^^

I also gotta love that the clueless wannabe supreme rulers are basically just called "the deficiency" haha. It does ring true, and wise. Can't help but notice that. Lots of "mistakes made brain" running around, insisting to see our petty BS to the end... paradise will be the ceasing of those efforts I guess, not their consummation.

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Will look into it fulp after beddybye time.

Does the god who supposedly created this world deserve to be worshipped?

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And loved, and adored, and followed, and obeyed, and respected, and studied with all our hearts and minds IMHO.

beyond the fact i feel God is with me, and sense him everyday. I dont understand how one could even not believe and worship in God as a matter of discourse.

To not is to believe in humans, and everything fallible. Humans errors, mistakes. Morality changes. Without God there is no fortitude on ones morality. It has no foundation. Like the creation argument, what came first the chicken or the egg? Well they both has to start from somewhere. Can anyone really believe the universe was just always here? We envision everything had to had a beginning, even energy and matter. So there must be a beginning, and a point where there was nothing created. Anything created had to have a creator. One that wasn't created. Can anyone picture the universe always existing? It is just molecules, matter having to start somewhere. Even the big bang had to come from something.
And i dont see the logic in not believing a creator, so i dont see the logic in not worshiping one. What is the point if there is no creator?
As a atheist why not just kill oneself? There is no point in living if there is no creator is there?
And if i am right, and worship a creator, i have a potential reward. If i am wrong i still lived a good life with a foundation in principles and a concrete sense of morality as it isn't just founded on a whim of man in a certain time period. It isn't inconsistant but solid. Either way i win or at least dont suffer consequences.

But if a atheist is wrong, they have some serious repercussions from that. I have at least a chance of being correct, as i make a decision to believe. So i have a chance in probabillity of a more favorable outcome. By not believing in anything, or worshiping a God, atheists arent even buying a lottery ticket to be in the chance for winnings. They automatically are picking the losing side, just by opting out. Where is the logic in that?

Now if you have a religion, some love to try to find the faults in religion, and claim they are man made. Just that claim in itself puts the failure on man. As they believe it to be man made. While at the same time, by not believing and worshiping, they are really putting their trust and faith in man. There is no logic in that.

Either way you are going to believe and somehow worship something. So you are picking something that on one side you claim is a failure in its own right, invented by man, while at the same time you are saying you believe in man. There is no other explanation as once you say you dont worship or believe in God, then you must believe in man.

what does a atheist have morality for anyway? Where did it come from? How do you even understand right from wrong? learned behavior? Tribalism?

If you are a atheist, why have any morality at all?

There is no "right" way. Everything is learned behavior just invented by fallible men.
so why have any morality at all? What stops a atheist from killing someone? Or doing reprehensible acts? There are no repercussions if you are a atheist is there? And if you have empathy, or sympathy. How do you explain that? Where did that come from? How do even explain knowing right for wrong or following either.
There is no God, as a atheist, so who cares. Or rather why care? As a atheist everyone is just a animal right? There is no concrete morality.
So you can just decide to believe things that are considered reprehensible are okay to do.

If you dont want to be tied to a creator, or God. Or a fixed value system. If you believe it was invented. Then so is what you live in today. Why be tied or subued by any fallacy. Which is what any system of values would be then right? To be really free as a atheist, free from any and all one would have to free themselves from all invented morality.
Doesn't sound like a logical thing to me.

What has one to gain in being a atheist? The answer in my mind is nothing. Unless one wanted to break off all chains in morality completley, and only then be truly free. Then a atheist has nothing to gain. And since non believers still relish in believing in perceived systems. They are only choosing a chain to bind them with lesser rewards and a less notable master.