The Afterlife

arcanum said:

Since you don't really believe in a human spirit or soul how can one read them in any other way than from a fleshly perspective if all we are is fleshly beings as you've seemed to indicate?

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we have spirituality...we were created with it. It is our ability to think and act like God. So the more we know about God and his qualities, the more we are able to bring our thinking and conduct into harmony with him.

yaddoe said:

Honestly it depends...
If I were living back in World War II days, horrible things were taking place during the holocaust. I would feel awfully selfish sitting safe and comfy over here in America while such terrible suffering was taking place over there. I feel it is my responsibility to help my brothers when they are in need. I do not delight in blood shed, but if it means killing the tyrants inflicting such cruel deaths on the people, then I need to kill the few to save the many.

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i understand your thinking, im sure every person with a righteous heart wants to do something about the evil in the world. And it really shows how our inner qualities of justice and love can be a motivating force in our life.

however, we also need to recognize that bringing justice on evildoers is not our job. This is were we need to balance our qualities of justice and righteousness with our faith and wisdom. We will never achieve peace on this earth, so adding fuel to the fire only ignites the flames. Rather our job is to be peaceable with ALL men as Jesus said. If the christians who were member of the nazi party all put that into practice, there would not have been a holocaust in the first place.

One of the fruitages of Gods spirit is 'peace' ....imagine how different the world would be if every individual was motivated by peace.

Nakosis said:

Would you be willing to take up arms to defend your neighbor?

Soldiers in war don't care about politics or the reason that caused them to be stuck in the middle of a war. They care about keeping each other alive. So you do what you have to do to survive.

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who is my neighbor?

according to Jesus, everyone is my neighbour. So would I be willing to hurt one neighbor for the sake of another neighbor? No.

I say, let the men who sit behind desks making the decisions for millions of people go and fight it out themselves ....leave the rest of the world out of it. If they want to fight, let them, we dont have to join them.

Katzpur said:

And do you know what the Greek word "pneuma" means? It means "spirit" but it also means "life" and "breath." It is every bit as correct to say that "God is life" as it is to say that "God is spirit." God is life. He is the source of all life. The fact that he is spirit (or life) do not preclude His also having physical attributes, as well.

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looking at how the word is used in context makes it very difficult to take seriously the idea that God has a body like ours. Pneuma also means 'wind'....does the wind have a body anything like ours?

the fact that such a word is used to describe God shows that he is without form... thats really why I made the comment about the hermaphrodite... because to say that God has a body like a man is to say that he must also have the body of a woman as both of us are made in his image.

Nakosis said:

Sorry my mistake. I thought Pegg was LDS too.
I don't think JWs have Bishops, do they?

A number of Christians give authority to scripture. Assuming that it provides it's own interpretation.

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no we dont. We often are confused with the LDS because we each hold to the original tradition of the 'elder' arrangement.

Pegg said:

who is my neighbor?

according to Jesus, everyone is my neighbour. So would I be willing to hurt one neighbor for the sake of another neighbor? No.

I say, let the men who sit behind desks making the decisions for millions of people go and fight it out themselves ....leave the rest of the world out of it. If they want to fight, let them, we dont have to join them.

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That's not true.

Luke 10
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

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While I agree we should not let men who sit behind desks decide who we are to fight, soldiers aren't fighting for the men behind the desks.

Nakosis said:

While I agree we should not let men who sit behind desks decide who we are to fight, soldiers aren't fighting for the men behind the desks.

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i know its not a pretty thing to admit, but yes, they are.

Pegg said:

i know its not a pretty thing to admit, but yes, they are.

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They fight to keep each other alive. They likely hate the people sitting behind the desks more then the enemy.

My point is a lot of times you have no control over the situation you find yourself in. I think a person has a right to survive/live. If someone is trying to kill you or someone you care about, you have IMO a right and maybe an obligation to try and stop them.

I think you have to examine the circumstances and can't make absolute rules of right and wrong.

Pegg said:

no we dont. We often are confused with the LDS because we each hold to the original tradition of the 'elder' arrangement.

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So how are you certain that your interpretation of the Bible is correct? Do you interpret the Bible for yourself or does the JW have people who direct/guide them in their interpretation?

Nakosis said:

They fight to keep each other alive. They likely hate the people sitting behind the desks more then the enemy.

My point is a lot of times you have no control over the situation you find yourself in. I think a person has a right to survive/live. If someone is trying to kill you or someone you care about, you have IMO a right and maybe an obligation to try and stop them.

I think you have to examine the circumstances and can't make absolute rules of right and wrong.

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there are many brave men languishing in jail cells right now who have complete control over the situation....they could be released at any time if they simply put on a soldiers uniform and join the army..... but they dont. We have more control over the situation then you realize.

Nakosis said:

So how are you certain that your interpretation of the Bible is correct? Do you interpret the Bible for yourself or does the JW have people who direct/guide them in their interpretation?

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we have a governing body who provide the teaching and interpretation for us. They use the bible and allow the bible to be its own interpreter.

Pegg said:

we have a governing body who provide the teaching and interpretation for us. They use the bible and allow the bible to be its own interpreter.

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I have trust issues.

That's why I can't join an religion. Been lied to too many times by people who by people who claim to speak for God and the Bible.

I don't trust prophets, I don't trust elders. That leaves me with the Holy Spirit.

Nakosis said:

I have trust issues.

That's why I can't join an religion. Been lied to too many times by people who by people who claim to speak for God and the Bible.

I don't trust prophets, I don't trust elders. That leaves me with the Holy Spirit.

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i completely understand...there are very few trustworthy individuals in todays world and most religious people fall into that category for me too.

You cant go wrong with God and his holy spirit. Do you trust that the bible is Gods word? Do you think its reasonable that he would provide a means of learning truth?

Pegg said:

we have a governing body who provide the teaching and interpretation for us. They use the bible and allow the bible to be its own interpreter.

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What interpretation can they provide if it's the bible that does it's own interpretation. These elders would appear to be supernumerary and therefore easily done without.

zomg said:

That would be a silly afterlife, indeed. No worries. I remember all the hand gestures and passwords to sneak into heaven :beach:

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Good luck. I don't know what makes you think that will do you any good.

Katzpur said:

Good luck. I don't know what makes you think that will do you any good.

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Then why have them in the first place?

Pegg said:

there are many brave men languishing in jail cells right now who have complete control over the situation....they could be released at any time if they simply put on a soldiers uniform and join the army..... but they dont. We have more control over the situation then you realize.

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Actually that whole go to war or go to jail this has been done away with. It has been that way for awhile now. I have been in the Army National Guard for 6 years now, trust me I know.

So from what I understand Pegg, you don't believe in the death penalty, am I right? You believe that mass murderers should be allowed to just run free and that we shouldn't try to stop them? You know there are places like that don't you? Do you live in a country like that? Why or why not?

Am I understanding this correctly?
You know, saying no military is also saying no police officers.
No police officers is saying anarchy. Criminals allowed to run free and do as they please. When an abusive husband is mistreating his wife and kids beating them with a baseball bat because he is drunk and then he pulls out a knife and you hear that wife pleading and praying for her life, she can't call the police because they do not exist. You are right there next door fully aware of what is taking place, your family has a hunting rifle in the gun safe, and are you saying that you believe that you should just do nothing and let God handle it?

I'm sorry, for me I think too much of the good Samaratin. I feel far too many people neglect those in need and just shrug there shoulders and say "I could help, but God will take care of them, he takes care of the lillies does he not?" and then they just pass them by and continue on their merry way.

I do however believe that it is commendable and that we do receive blessings from not fighting back when people harm us. It is a good thing to turn the other cheek. I feel it is one thing when someone is doing harm to me and I turn the other cheek and something completely different when someone is doing harm to someone else and I stand idlely by allowing it to happen.

If someone were to be murdered and I were to know that I stood idlely by and watched it happen without doing anything to prevent it when I very well could have, I would feel like I had blood on my hands, like Pontius Pilot.

If there is a holocaust going on out there, and we very well can put a stop to it, but don't, what makes us any different than Pilot?

yaddoe said:

Actually that whole go to war or go to jail this has been done away with. It has been that way for awhile now. I have been in the Army National Guard for 6 years now, trust me I know.

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that depends where you live. If you live in greece, Korea or china and some other places, you are not afforded that luxury.

yaddoe said:

So from what I understand Pegg, you don't believe in the death penalty, am I right? You believe that mass murderers should be allowed to just run free and that we shouldn't try to stop them? You know there are places like that don't you? Do you live in a country like that? Why or why not?
Am I understanding this correctly?
You know, saying no military is also saying no police officers.
No police officers is saying anarchy. Criminals allowed to run free and do as they please.

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it is the job of the governments to manage their respective societies. They are the 'superior authorities' mentioned in the book of Romans chpater 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad

So it is the governments job to enforce law and order....not ours. In australia there are laws against vigilantism. It is against the law to forcefully detain someone if you are not a member of the police force. So when i say its not up to us as individuals to go to war against enemies, i dont mean that we should allow criminals to do whatever they please. But it is the job of the police force to do something about criminals. If i saw my neighbor being threatened, i'd call the police.

yaddoe said:

When an abusive husband is mistreating his wife and kids beating them with a baseball bat because he is drunk and then he pulls out a knife and you hear that wife pleading and praying for her life, she can't call the police because they do not exist. You are right there next door fully aware of what is taking place, your family has a hunting rifle in the gun safe, and are you saying that you believe that you should just do nothing and let God handle it?

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guns are illegal in australia, so if i took a gun to the man i'd be arrested. Once again, I'd call the police and if I could give shelter to the wife and kids i would do that....but i wouldnt go on a rampage against the man, no.

yaddoe said:

If someone were to be murdered and I were to know that I stood idlely by and watched it happen without doing anything to prevent it when I very well could have, I would feel like I had blood on my hands, like Pontius Pilot.

If there is a holocaust going on out there, and we very well can put a stop to it, but don't, what makes us any different than Pilot?

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well i agree with you here for sure, christians are told to be willing to sacrifice themselves for each other....so trying to protect someone is a good thing and is certainly something that is in harmony with Jesus teachings. But where we should draw the line is in actively fighting against them.

a scripture that comes to mind is:
Romans 12:17 Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” 20 But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.

Pegg said:

it is the job of the governments to manage their respective societies. They are the 'superior authorities' mentioned in the book of Romans chpater 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad

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This would mean that god put Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hussein, Qadaffi, et al in charge and is therefore responsible for all of their atrocities as well as his own?

fishy said:

This would mean that god put Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hussein, Qadaffi, et al in charge and is therefore responsible for all of their atrocities as well as his own?

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Gods permission of human governments does not mean he directs them. the scriptures are clear that human governments are in the hands of Satan the devil....he directs them.