The Afterlife

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Here are the references to our pre-mortal existence, however something gives me the feeling that you have probably read through these references before, and I know you have your own interpretation about every single one of them.

God of the spirits of all flesh, Num. 16:22 (Num. 27:16).
all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38:7
the spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1:5
Lord … formeth the spirit of man within him, Zech. 12:1
who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind, John 9:2
poets have said, For we are also his offspring, Acts 17:28
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate, Rom. 8:29
chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:4
subjection unto the Father of spirits, Heb. 12:9
angels which kept not their first estate, Jude 1:6
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, Rev. 12:7
See also Prov. 8:22–31; John 1:2, 14; John 8:58; John 16:28; John 17:5, 24; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2

 

[Pegg]

That was a quote from The Doctrine and Covenants. So far I have found that this doctrine can be found throughout all of the scriptures (Old and New Testament, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price.)

Here are some Bible references concerning the body of God the Father, and I do understand that you have your own interpretations of these references.

God created man in his own image, Gen. 1:27 (Moses 2:27).

this would make God an hermaphrodite because the genesis account actually says:God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them

God created man, in the likeness of God made he him, Gen. 5:1
in the image of God made he man, Gen. 9:6

the hebrew word translated 'image' is betsal·me′nu. It means shadow or semblance. This indicates that it was not meant to be understood that we were an actual mirror image of God. A shadow of you is nothing like the real image of yourself....it gives an outline only. In the same way, we are only an outline of Gods qualities and attributes....not of his physical person because God is a spirit, he has no physical attributes.

Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing, Gen. 18:33
I have seen God face to face, Gen. 32:30
they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet, Ex. 24:10
written with the finger of God, Ex. 31:18 (Deut. 9:10).
Lord spake unto Moses face to face, Ex. 33:11
thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen, Ex. 33:23
With him will I speak mouth to mouth, Num. 12:8
a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, Matt. 3:17
every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, Matt. 4:4
a voice out of the cloud, Matt. 17:5
for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have, Luke 24:39
he that hath seen me hath seen the Father, John 14:9
the Son of man standing on the right hand of God, Acts 7:56
predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, Rom. 8:29
Christ, who is the image of God, 2 Cor. 4:4
Who, being in the form of God, Philip. 2:6
our vile body … fashioned like unto his glorious body, Philip. 3:21
Who is the image of the invisible God, Col. 1:15
the express image of his person, Heb. 1:3
men, which are made after the similitude of God, James 3:9
when he shall appear, we shall be like him, 1 Jn. 3:2
they shall see his face, Rev. 22:4

We really have to tie the above in with Gods own declaration found at Exodus 33:20 And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.

There are so many accounts about God speaking to an individual it is easy to read them as if it was God himself speaking. But the fact is that God spoke through angels as his representatives....the scriptures explain this, ie:

Exodus 3:2 Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. ... 4 When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.”

Genesis 32:24 Finally Jacob was left by himself. Then a man began to grapple with him until the dawn ascended. ....30 Hence Jacob called the name of the place Pe·ni′el, because, to quote him, “I have seen God face to face"

Genesis 16:7 Later Jehovah’s angel found her at a fountain of waters in the wilderness, at the fountain on the way to Shur. 13 Then she began to call the name of Jehovah, who was speaking to her: “You are a God of sight,” for she said: “Have I here actually looked upon him who sees me?”

Judges 6:22 Consequently Gid′e·on realized that it was Jehovah’s angel. At once Gid′e·on said: “Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, for the reason that I have seen Jehovah’s angel face to face!

There are numerous examples of how the isrealites viewed their visit by an angel as a visit by God himself.
The christians believed and taught this and they repeatedly stated that God has never physically been seen by anyone, ever:

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time
1 John 4:12 At no time has anyone beheld God
John 5:37 Also, the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. YOU have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his figure

 

[Pegg]

Here are the references to our pre-mortal existence, however something gives me the feeling that you have probably read through these references before, and I know you have your own interpretation about every single one of them.

God of the spirits of all flesh, Num. 16:22 (Num. 27:16).
all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38:7
the spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1:5
Lord … formeth the spirit of man within him, Zech. 12:1
who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind, John 9:2
poets have said, For we are also his offspring, Acts 17:28
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate, Rom. 8:29
chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:4
subjection unto the Father of spirits, Heb. 12:9
angels which kept not their first estate, Jude 1:6
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, Rev. 12:7
See also Prov. 8:22–31; John 1:2, 14; John 8:58; John 16:28; John 17:5, 24; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2

many of these are speaking about the angels of God who are spirits. None of them state that we were once angels or that we lived in heaven as spirits.

if your interpretation of these is that it is speaking about us, then why do we know so little about our previous lives as spirits? Do you remember any of it?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

this would make God an hermaphrodite because the genesis account actually says:God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them



the hebrew word translated 'image' is betsal·me′nu. It means shadow or semblance. This indicates that it was not meant to be understood that we were an actual mirror image of God. A shadow of you is nothing like the real image of yourself....it gives an outline only. In the same way, we are only an outline of Gods qualities and attributes....not of his physical person because God is a spirit, he has no physical attributes.




We really have to tie the above in with Gods own declaration found at Exodus 33:20 And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.

There are so many accounts about God speaking to an individual it is easy to read them as if it was God himself speaking. But the fact is that God spoke through angels as his representatives....the scriptures explain this, ie:

Exodus 3:2 Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. ... 4 When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.”

Genesis 32:24 Finally Jacob was left by himself. Then a man began to grapple with him until the dawn ascended. ....30 Hence Jacob called the name of the place Pe·ni′el, because, to quote him, “I have seen God face to face"

Genesis 16:7 Later Jehovah’s angel found her at a fountain of waters in the wilderness, at the fountain on the way to Shur. 13 Then she began to call the name of Jehovah, who was speaking to her: “You are a God of sight,” for she said: “Have I here actually looked upon him who sees me?”

Judges 6:22 Consequently Gid′e·on realized that it was Jehovah’s angel. At once Gid′e·on said: “Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, for the reason that I have seen Jehovah’s angel face to face!

There are numerous examples of how the isrealites viewed their visit by an angel as a visit by God himself.
The christians believed and taught this and they repeatedly stated that God has never physically been seen by anyone, ever:

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time
1 John 4:12 At no time has anyone beheld God
John 5:37 Also, the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. YOU have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his figure

We can debate about each one of these individual scriptures on and on, with all of these topics, but in the end it really just keeps coming back to this...
I already told you, I know you have your own interpretation on all of these scriptures. As I keep saying, your interpretations are all assumptions made to help support what you want to believe in. The Catholics do the same thing as does every other religion you ever talk to, that is why there is so much to talk about here on Religious Forums. What do you really have that makes your assumptions any better than theirs?

 

[fishy]

We can debate about each one of these individual scriptures on and on, with all of these topics, but in the end it really just keeps coming back to this...
I already told you, I know you have your own interpretation on all of these scriptures. As I keep saying, your interpretations are all assumptions made to help support what you want to believe in. The Catholics do the same thing as does every other religion you ever talk to, that is why there is so much to talk about here on Religious Forums. What do you really have that makes your assumptions any better than theirs?

What do you really have that makes their assumptions any less true than yours?

 

[fishy]

There are so many accounts about God speaking to an individual it is easy to read them as if it was God himself speaking.

Umm isn't that what you are supposed read?

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time
1 John 4:12 At no time has anyone beheld God

That would include Jesus?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

What do you really have that makes their assumptions any less true than yours?

The motto and exhortation to pray. It is something I find lacking in everyone of the other religions I talk to. If you want to know if the doctrine we teach is true, ask God. Instead every time when I ask anyone else they just give me another lead on another scriptural assumption. I'd say it is the single most important unique thing about the LDS religion, the dependence on God more than man. The Holy Spirit really does testify the truth of these things to those who really study it out and want to know.

 

[Pegg]

We can debate about each one of these individual scriptures on and on, with all of these topics, but in the end it really just keeps coming back to this...
I already told you, I know you have your own interpretation on all of these scriptures. As I keep saying, your interpretations are all assumptions made to help support what you want to believe in. The Catholics do the same thing as does every other religion you ever talk to, that is why there is so much to talk about here on Religious Forums. What do you really have that makes your assumptions any better than theirs?

What we have are the scriptures, they provide the answers and if everyone stuck to what they say, then we would not have so many differing beliefs.

 

[Pegg]

Umm isn't that what you are supposed read?

That would include Jesus?

if we read the accounts in full, we are given more details such as 'it was Gods angel who spoke'

For example, if we read more of the verses from John, he answers your 2nd question:
John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him

John 6:46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father


John is confirming that no man except Jesus has seen God. And the reason why Jesus has seen God is because Jesus came from heaven, he was originally a spirit, so as a spirit, he can see God....but humans cannot see him and never have seen him.

 

[Pegg]

The motto and exhortation to pray. It is something I find lacking in everyone of the other religions I talk to. If you want to know if the doctrine we teach is true, ask God. Instead every time when I ask anyone else they just give me another lead on another scriptural assumption. I'd say it is the single most important unique thing about the LDS religion, the dependence on God more than man. The Holy Spirit really does testify the truth of these things to those who really study it out and want to know.

if the holy spirit is leading anyone, then the fruits of the holy spirit would be evident. If the fruits are not evident in a religion (any religion) then it cannot be claimed to be led by holy spirit.

that is an easy way to determine if ones religion is led be holy spirit or not.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

What we have are the scriptures, they provide the answers and if everyone stuck to what they say, then we would not have so many differing beliefs.

Unfortunately the scriptures are very vague, leaving a lot of room for people's personal assumptions to fill in the vague spots. Man needs more than just the scriptures. We need God or someone with authority from God to give us the solid interpretation of the scriptures. We need more than mere assumptions.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

if the holy spirit is leading anyone, then the fruits of the holy spirit would be evident. If the fruits are not evident in a religion (any religion) then it cannot be claimed to be led by holy spirit.

that is an easy way to determine if ones religion is led be holy spirit or not.

Galatians 5:22
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ephesians 5:9
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

Yes I believe that, however I have met an awful lot of people from different religions who seem to have these attributes and everyone seems to have their own doctrine and different interpretations of the same Biblical scriptures.

 

[Pegg]

Unfortunately the scriptures are very vague, leaving a lot of room for people's personal assumptions to fill in the vague spots.

they are only vague if you read them from a fleshly perspective. But if you are led by the spirit and think like the spirit, then they are not so vague.

Man needs more than just the scriptures. We need God or someone with authority from God to give us the solid interpretation of the scriptures. We need more than mere assumptions.

you are right on that note. Yes, we need someone who is led by the spirit to teach. God has always worked that way and he will continue to do so. But God does not leave us in the lurch...it all begins with holy scripture:

2Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

 

[Pegg]

Galatians 5:22
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ephesians 5:9
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

Yes I believe that, however I have met an awful lot of people from different religions who seem to have these attributes and everyone seems to have their own doctrine and different interpretations of the same Biblical scriptures.

Thats true, however if we learn each fruitage on a deeper level we might areas where such people are not truly producing the fruitage of the spirit.

For example, the first fruitage is love. The scriptures tell us what love is at 1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is long-suffering and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, does not get puffed up, 5 does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. 6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things

We also have the example of Jesus 'Good Samaritan' story where the man who showed love was the one who stopped to help the needy man from another nation. With that in mind we can see that love is a motivating force. It influences acts of kindness to others without expectation of a reward or payment. It does not seek to harm, but looks to do good to ones neighbor.

A very simple test of a person love is to ask if they would support war. Could a person who loves their neighbor in the above mentioned ways be willing to take up arms and kill his neighbor? What do you think?

 

[Pegg]

double post.

 

[fishy]

The scriptures tell us what love is at 1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is long-suffering and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, does not get puffed up, 5 does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. 6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things

We can see from this that the gods of the bible and qu'ran at least don't possess LOVE, I don't know about the other gods.

 

[arcanum]

they are only vague if you read them from a fleshly perspective. But if you are led by the spirit and think like the spirit, then they are not so vague.



you are right on that note. Yes, we need someone who is led by the spirit to teach. God has always worked that way and he will continue to do so. But God does not leave us in the lurch...it all begins with holy scripture:

2Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

Since you don't really believe in a human spirit or soul how can one read them in any other way than from a fleshly perspective if all we are is fleshly beings as you've seemed to indicate?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Thats true, however if we learn each fruitage on a deeper level we might areas where such people are not truly producing the fruitage of the spirit.

For example, the first fruitage is love. The scriptures tell us what love is at 1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is long-suffering and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, does not get puffed up, 5 does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. 6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things

We also have the example of Jesus 'Good Samaritan' story where the man who showed love was the one who stopped to help the needy man from another nation. With that in mind we can see that love is a motivating force. It influences acts of kindness to others without expectation of a reward or payment. It does not seek to harm, but looks to do good to ones neighbor.

A very simple test of a person love is to ask if they would support war. Could a person who loves their neighbor in the above mentioned ways be willing to take up arms and kill his neighbor? What do you think?

Honestly it depends...
If I were living back in World War II days, horrible things were taking place during the holocaust. I would feel awfully selfish sitting safe and comfy over here in America while such terrible suffering was taking place over there. I feel it is my responsibility to help my brothers when they are in need. I do not delight in blood shed, but if it means killing the tyrants inflicting such cruel deaths on the people, then I need to kill the few to save the many.

 

[Nakosis]

A very simple test of a person love is to ask if they would support war. Could a person who loves their neighbor in the above mentioned ways be willing to take up arms and kill his neighbor? What do you think?

Would you be willing to take up arms to defend your neighbor?

Soldiers in war don't care about politics or the reason that caused them to be stuck in the middle of a war. They care about keeping each other alive. So you do what you have to do to survive.

 

[Katzpur]

If there is an afterlife, and I get to spend it with my wife, I will be pleasantly surprised

There's also a third option. There is an afterlife, but you won't be spending it with your wife.