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Did Krishna minimize the importance of the Vedas?

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
We know that the Buddha rejected the Vedas for what He saw they had become... mindlessly ritualistic and an end in themselves. For those who accept that the Buddha is the 9th avatāra of Vishnu, coming after Krishna, it seems that Krishna was paving the way for the Buddha's views.

"Men of small knowledge are very much attached to the flowery words of the Vedas, which recommend various fruitive activities for elevation to heavenly planets, resultant good birth, power, and so forth. Being desirous of sense gratification and opulent life, they say that there is nothing more than this." B.G. 2-42-43

"The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self." B.G. 12.45

"All purposes served by a small well can at once be served by a great reservoir of water. Similarly, all the purposes of the Vedas can be served to one who knows the purpose behind them." B.G. 12.46
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
It does seem like Krishna's teachings are the link between the Vedic religion and Puranic/modern Hinduism where the Vedas are revered, but not immediately important or relevant.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I thought so; at first I thought it was just me. Now that I see your comment, it does seem moreso that Krishna was paving the way for a reform, or re-alignment of Hinduism, by not putting the Vedas on such a high pedestal.

It further seems to me that Buddhism took it a step further by outright rejecting the Vedas, but I see this as options within the Dharmic religion, not unlike the schools and sampradāyas under the umbrella term of Hinduism.
 

magalaan

Member
We know that the Buddha rejected the Vedas for what He saw they had become... mindlessly ritualistic and an end in themselves.
The Veda's have not become anything, they are still what they are, perfect Knowledge. Their meaning is not diminished in any way. It is not the Veda's that changed, it is people that changed as they entered kali yuga.

Look at people today. Their mind has lost subtlety. They can no longer understand subtle texts. They can no longer coop with nuances. They have a one track mind, and immediately see contradictions as errors. They are no longer aware that reality itself is full of wonderful contradictions. They live in rigid thought worlds in which contradictions are seen as undermining the structure.

So for this new age, to reach the lower conscious a new approach had to be developed. A rational approach. Because todays people are caught up in rational thought. They try rationalize every thing. So Krishna and Buddha provide us with pure rational thought, something intellectuals of this age can understand.

The Veda's remain at a higher level. Rational thought is self-explanatory, poems like the Veda's are not. The can only be understood by people that have a higher consciousness. This idea is a curse in kali yuga. In kali yuga people find it increasingly more difficult to accept that others could have a higher consciousness than themselves. It creates feelings of inferiority they try to compensate by intellectual arrogance.

In the teachings of Krishna and Buddha the Divine extends a hand for us to climb to higher consciousness. But the Veda's are more, the Veda's are the being of God. Brahmaa is associated with the Veda's. The Veda's are like an eternal well from which new water springs. The being of God is only surpassed by the not being. That is why Krishna says that to the enlightened one the Veda's are merely a bucket of water on a flooded land.

Buddha even went a step further. When people can no longer experience Deva's and devotion is no longer an open road for them. Then they need a prescription. Someone has to tell them how to behave, describe them the road step by step. Buddha is an engineer that gives you a manual to enlightenment. Road to enlightenment for dummies.

After that came Christianity, Christianity no longer gives a road to enlightenment at all. It only tries to console you with suffering. It lifts you to a point, but then you have to switch to something else. Now we have science, science does not even lift the spirit anymore, it can only create better living conditions. Science is even more factual and rational and limited. the mind retracts itself in the physical world.

In this world only Hindu's reach enlightenment, because only Hindu's still have living guru's that can lead people to enlightenment. The rest is living in a fog or complete darkness.

Buddhist talk a lot of nirwana but few reach it, many even believe that Buddha was the last one to reach it. Christians talk about God like they have a telephoneline to him and know his every wish, but none reach enlightenment. Atheist only try to prove God does not exist.
 
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Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
I thought so; at first I thought it was just me. Now that I see your comment, it does seem moreso that Krishna was paving the way for a reform, or re-alignment of Hinduism, by not putting the Vedas on such a high pedestal.

I always thought that the reason the Vedas sadhana is not followed today is it is to complex. The Vedas is still respected it is just not the right practice for today. I read an interesting book on this subject. In the Mahabhrata the teachings of Bishma represents the old ways and Krishna the new according to this author.
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
The Veda's have not become anything, they are still what they are, perfect Knowledge. Their meaning is not diminished in any way. It is not the Veda's that changed, it is people that changed as they entered kali yuga.

I agree. It seems that since the foreign conquest of India by the Abrahamic cultures, some Hindu's has shifted on the monist-monotheistic scale towards monotheism with the rejection of monism as a real path to God. (both are taught in the Vedas) This has caused some to become more intolerant towards others and they have needed to distance them selves from the Vedas.

Before the Islamic conquest there were no Temples to the Lord Krishna or Lord Rama, only Vishnu (that I know of). Now folks can't agree and need to argue among them selves so every sect needs own temple. Some will not eat Prasad from any temple except from there their own samprada. It is no longer enough just to be a Krishna Temple it must be there breed of Krishna Temple. How can these types follow or respect the Vedas that are on the whole non sectarian In nature.
 
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magalaan

Member
I agree. It seems that since the foreign conquest of India by the Abrahamic cultures, some Hindu's has shifted on the monist-monotheistic scale towards monotheism with the rejection of monism as a real path to God. (both are taught in the Vedas) This has caused some to become more intolerant towards others and they have needed to distance them selves from the Vedas.

Before the Islamic conquest there were no Temples to the Lord Krishna or Lord Rama, only Vishnu (that I know of). Now folks can't agree and need to argue among them selves so every sect needs own temple. Some will not eat Prasad from any temple except from there their own samprada. It is no longer enough just to be a Krishna Temple it must be there breed of Krishna Temple. How can these types follow or respect the Vedas that are on the whole non sectarian In nature.

Monotheism is the religion of lower consciousness. The Deva's are no longer experienced and appreciated, nor is conscious of the Divine in Nature. God becomes a theoretical concept, a book concept. God lives in the book as an idea.

That is why monotheism leads to atheism. After God is removed from nature and becomes only transcendent, there is no longer a need for him. That is why in Judaism and Christian culture people can become atheist. In Islam there still is strong devotion because of the duty to pray and there is strict social control as in Christianity used to be. But without the Deva's the distance can not be bridged. It is like saying, skip elementary school, high school, go to university direct. That is the real deal, that is what you want. You want the end result, the destination. But consciousness can not make that leap. There one God becomes a blockade. Unreachable and not allowing anything else.

Devotion is like climbing the mountain from the sloping side, simply go on and eventually you get there. The jnana climbs the steep side, it is very hard, and one easily gets stuck. The intellectual gets stuck in rationalizing. He gets stuck in his ideas, in beliefs.

Monotheist do not even seek enlightenment, they want to live on forever unchanged in heaven, only more happy. That is all they can imagine. They have no higher outlook. They do not even strife any longer for a higher consciousness. Their book is their ceiling, a ceiling they can not pass.

Because the colonizer always presents himself as superior, and his God as superior. (My God beat your Gods), some people are tempted to take on their ideas. But look closer, the colonizer is not superior at all. His civilization is exterior, not interior. His lack of self-control makes him greedy, wanting and unhappy. He wants you to think he is happier by making your life miserable, but he is not.

The division was the result of the war of Gods. The power seeking Gods, the Asura's went west where the Sun sets, the middle east, and Europe (eveningland). The Deva's stayed in the East, where Sun rises, in Azia (Aze is land of sunrise).

The powerseeking supreme God Varuna stands for order, he tolerates no other Gods besides him only beneath him (they became his servants, angels, satan is an angel too), he is a jealous God. He wants to be feared. Who breaks his order, his laws, must ask forgiveness or perish. Pledges of loyalty make him forgive (mercy). Read the Veda's about it, they were written even before the split, when Varuna was not yet an Asura. The Deva's are not power-hungry, that is why they are many and all are worshiped. Their Love is not competing.

The Gods play their games and take on new names. Varuna became Ahura Mazda in Zoroasterism in Persia, and Uranus in Greece, JHWH in Judaism. Ganesh can for instance be found as Janus in Rome and Toth in Egypyt, Hermes in Greece. But in the West the Asura's mostly dominate.

We read the stories of the Gods and say, o, now that is mythology, it is not real. Our rational mind says, that is simply symbolism, not real. But they do not understand the deeper meaning of symbolism itself. Reality has many layers and even on a higher level there is struggle. At every level existence and non-existence, creation and destruction counter each other. And so do the Deva's and Asura's whether we get a glimpse of it or not.

But do not worry, our conscious is not in danger, that is in our own hands, always. Nobody can elevate or lower the conscious of someone else unless he is looking for that himself. The struggle is a test of character. It brings out what is beneficial en detrimental in us. It show us of "what we are made off".

East and West are now mixing again. Deva's go west, Asura's go east. It is confusing to both sides. both are frightened by the change. Both fear the loss of their civilization. One is based on humanity, inner civilization, the other on order and outer civilization.

But we are not losing civilization, consciousness is not falling. It is the rising of consciousness that creates this illusion. As increasingly more lower beings are rising to be human, the share of highly developed ones goes down and they seem to find themselves emerged in a sea of low consciousness. But they find their own still. Every kind finds his own kind. But if we want to save the world, then we get desperate. But that is foolishness and of no use as change will never end. It is the journey not the destination we want to enjoy. The Deva's will be our guide and make it a pleasant journey. Let the God's play their part and we ours.

If any God ever expressed the Joy of existence, the joy of fulfilling his part, it is Krishna. Even if he comes to fight evil in this world, his Joy is always present. His battle is no more than his dharm. Compare that to the suffering of Jesus, as expression of his fathers, jealousy, fear and anger. Qualities that drive Christians around the world in futile attempt to save it.
 
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TTCUSM

Member
Magalaan,

You are actually right.
The Vedas describe a conflict between two groups of people: the Aryans and their enemies, the Dasas. The Dasas were the ancestors of modern-day Persians, and they considered Varuna to be their deity. After settling in Iran, the Dasa religion evolved into Zoroastrianism, which is widely considered to be the first monotheistic religion. This religion may have influenced Judaism, since the Persian king Darius liberated the Jews from their captivity in Babylon.
 

magalaan

Member
Magalaan,

You are actually right.
The Vedas describe a conflict between two groups of people: the Aryans and their enemies, the Dasas. The Dasas were the ancestors of modern-day Persians, and they considered Varuna to be their deity. After settling in Iran, the Dasa religion evolved into Zoroastrianism, which is widely considered to be the first monotheistic religion. This religion may have influenced Judaism, since the Persian king Darius liberated the Jews from their captivity in Babylon.

Yes, in the first lines of their holy books the Avesta: I found this:
1. Ashem Vohu (1 & 3).
I profess myself a Mazda-worshipper and a Zoroastrian, opposing the Daevas, accepting the Ahuric doctrine. For Hawan....

The Jews were by force converted to Zoroastrianism under King Cyrus who is greatly praised in the Bible. He sent his priest the pharsi to Israel and forced them to divorce from their non-Jewish wives as was it against their customs. The female Goddesses were removed from the temple and later Father and Son God were united. These pharsi priests live on in the bible as the Pharisees, and became the dominant cult in Judaism. Judaism is an offshoot of Zoroastrianism and was brought from Babylon. But it took hundred of years. Until 300BC the mother Goddess was still worshiped in their great temple. Even until the 1400 there were still Jewish sects that worshiped the father, mother, son and daughter Gods. It was the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans that actually led to the victory of the pharisees as did not resist the Romans.

Monotheism is a lie as one can expect as it is repressing all other ideas ferociously. It can not tolerate anything that is an insult to their God. As he states himself: I am a jealous God. Many believers are fighting not even knowing what they are fighting for, misled by their egomaniac God, that thinks he is Brahman himself. But often his soldiers will say: I am fighting for the system, I fighting to uphold order. As Hitler put it: one reich, one people, one fuhrer, the Nazi empire was like every empire all about ruthless order. And in the US it is: One nation under God. It has been the ideal of every empire.

And this protector of order is often said to have created all. But that is not true! In Genesis, the creation story, one can read that JHWH did not create the universe, he only separated the earth from heavens. He was creating order not in the whole universe but probably only in the solar system, as he was a Sun God. It even tells that the Gods were already there and Gods married the daughters of men. And yes science tells us that the Sun created everything in the solar system.

And now surprise, we read the same about Varuna in the Veda's. He is the seperator of earth and heaven. Both Indra en Varuna are considered Solar deities, representing different aspects. Varuna represents Law and order, that is why the bible is all about commandments. It does not promote values, it forbids transgressions. The commandments are all but one restrictions: They begin with: Thou shalled NOT. Because laws inhibit. That is the nature of order.

And that is why Christians and Muslims are so submissive. Their God calls himself a fearful God and demands his worshipers are God fearing people. And Guess what, the same is said in the Veda's about Varuna. One can almost read the our fathers prayer of the Christians in the Veda's, begging for forgiveness.

That is why those that read the bible the most are the most vicious people too. Lets not be fooled. Simple example: Why are the Americans giving Atom bombs to Pakistan, even cruise missiles and not seek friendship with a peace loving democracy like India, but help a terrorist sponsoring nation like Pakistan? Is that not illogical? Games are being played at every level, even today.

The Jews are special and different. The Jews are not submissive. They have always fought this God, but are bound to him by a contract, a bond, but not by Love. That is why the name Israel: actually means: he that fights with God. The Jews made a contract, but try to dodge it where ever they can. They have a love hate relationship with their God that they regard as both good and evil. Yes the Jews consider him also evil. In the concentration camp they even put him on trial and found him guilty for his lack of humanity.

Don't say all this is imagination. Because billions of people are part of this imagination, it has shaped our history. And as much as people want to adopt a rational scientific view, the world is not led by such rational views.

This order aspect of the Sun, is also associated with the moon. The moon that is a reflection of the Sun. Reflection is a word also used for thinking, because it orders the the thought process. The moon (often associated with the intellect) is actually creating order. Scientists found out that without the moon, earth would be like Venus, uncontrolled storms. So Varuna is also associated with the moon. And guess what. what is the symbol of the Islam? The half moon, because the supreme God that became to be known as Allah after he jealously ousted all others from the Kaballah was the Moon God Al illah. And guess what? The Jews worship in a synagogue a word that came from the Moon God Sin.

The Romans primarly worshiped sunGods. Like Mytras. The name Ahura Mazda comes likely from Asura Mitra. Mitra and Varuna are often combined in Mitra-Varuna. Mytras was one of the most popular Sun gods in the Roman empire and came from Persia. Like Jesus he walked with twelve disciples, had a crown and a last supper before he was killed and many more similarities.

Coincidence. I believe not. I have been studying all these religions to make some kind of sense in this perplexing history of religious conflicts. It always seemed to me that it is only logical that the Gods would turn up in other cultures under different names. And they do. And the resemblance is often striking. But scientist would say that is because ideas were exchanged. But that is self-deceit. Even totally separated regions have these comparisons. For the higher principles and forces of Nature are the same everywhere. The Gods too remain having their character, even if they dress up in different personalities, just like humans trying to disguise themselves.

In Judaism we still find things that tie them to a common heritage. For instance Abraham and his wife Sarah, come most likely from Brahmaa and Saraswati. Both are said to have married their half sister, something repeated by his son Isaak and grand son Jacob. Scientist have often claimed that there is a common heritage, but it is in the Veda's. The war described in the Gita has to do with the war between the Gods. It is a war that is repeated over and over. Both parties use wit to fool humans. It is like a game of chess with living pieces. To the Gods that are immortal and know that the human soul is immortal too, it is a game. Without that game eternal life would be ..., well like eternity, deadly boring. Their is no master plan to save the universe, it is the lila of the Gods, inspired by the lila of the Highest.

So be prepared that you have a part to play and play it to the best of you ability. That is why your soul came to this place. For the Kurukshetra is in many levels, in our heart, but here on earth too. This beautiful game that can only be played with conviction by an immortal if he loses his memory. That is your role and on both sides some people are very aware of the their role. But both play by different set of rules. One by love, and the other by force. What will prevail in this epic battle?
 
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Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Devotion is like climbing the mountain from the sloping side, simply go on and eventually you get there. The jnana climbs the steep side, it is very hard, and one easily gets stuck. The intellectual gets stuck in rationalizing. He gets stuck in his ideas, in beliefs.

True, interesting story about getting to the top.


"In one article the famous Swiss psychologist Carl Jung contrasted Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Bhagavan and saw in this succession the progressive advance from bhakti to jnana. On hearing this, Bhagavan promptly sat erect and protested against the comparison, saying: "When one has reached the mountain-top, no matter from which side and by which path, one knows and understands all other paths. What is there that Sri Ramakrishna did not know?"

Biographies
 

magalaan

Member
True, interesting story about getting to the top.


"In one article the famous Swiss psychologist Carl Jung contrasted Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Bhagavan and saw in this succession the progressive advance from bhakti to jnana. On hearing this, Bhagavan promptly sat erect and protested against the comparison, saying: "When one has reached the mountain-top, no matter from which side and by which path, one knows and understands all other paths. What is there that Sri Ramakrishna did not know?"

Biographies
An enlightened one knows everything. But not all at the same time, unless he is in a state of Moksha. But in that state their is no division, so their is neither significance, only the total experience.

Whatever an enlightened one needs he can pull from his heart, without hesitation, doubt or fear for error. That is what it means to be enlightened. But this knowledge is not as important as people think. What would wealth even mean if one can have all the wealth in the world? It loses all significance. As a means is was useful, then it becomes meaningless.

What most of people regard as knowledge are simply illusions, don't expect an enlightened one to have encyclopedia of this, use Google. But the enlightened one will recognize it as illusion without effort. it can be difficult to have a meaningful exchange of information with such people as they do not conform to peoples expectations. True bhakts do not seek their knowledge but their presence.
 
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Atman

Member
Namaste Magalaan

The Jews were by force converted to Zoroastrianism under King Cyrus who is greatly praised in the Bible. He sent his priest the pharsi to Israel and forced them to divorce from their non-Jewish wives as was it against their customs. The female Goddesses were removed from the temple and later Father and Son God were united. These pharsi priests live on in the bible as the Pharisees, and became the dominant cult in Judaism. Judaism is an offshoot of Zoroastrianism and was brought from Babylon. But it took hundred of years. Until 300BC the mother Goddess was still worshiped in their great temple. Even until the 1400 there were still Jewish sects that worshiped the father, mother, son and daughter Gods. It was the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans that actually led to the victory of the pharisees as did not resist the Romans.
I`d be careful in assuming this. No doubt Judaism was probably incluenced by the Zarathustrian (Zoroaster is the Greek translation of the Persian name Zarathustra) thought, but to assume a forced conversion to monotheism took place is a bit presumptious. For the most part Zarathustrianism has been a very tolerant religion, and us Hindus have historically had very close ties to the Zarathustrians, giving many of them a home in India, when they were persecuted in Persia by their Muslim rulers.

Whatever an enlightened one needs he can pull from his heart, without hesitation, doubt or fear for error. That is what it means to be enlightened. But this knowledge is not as important as people think. What would wealth even mean if one can have all the wealth in the world? It loses all significance. As a means is was useful, then it becomes meaningless.

What most of people regard as knowledge are simply illusions, don't expect an enlightened one to have encyclopedia of this, use Google. But the enlightened one will recognize it as illusion without effort. it can be difficult to have a meaningful exchange of information with such people as they do not conform to peoples expectations. True bhakts do not seek their knowledge but their presence.
My humble pranams to you Magalaan, very well explained.
 

magalaan

Member
Namaste Magalaan

I`d be careful in assuming this. No doubt Judaism was probably incluenced by the Zarathustrian (Zoroaster is the Greek translation of the Persian name Zarathustra) thought, but to assume a forced conversion to monotheism took place is a bit presumptious. For the most part Zarathustrianism has been a very tolerant religion, and us Hindus have historically had very close ties to the Zarathustrians, giving many of them a home in India, when they were persecuted in Persia by their Muslim rulers.

My humble pranams to you Magalaan, very well explained.

Ram Ram Atman,

pranams to you.

This is well documented. I believe it was the Prohpet Ezra that was sent back to Israel with the Pharsi priests by King Cyrus. What he did, led to a complete schism in the Jewish people. He forced all Jews to divorce from their non-Jewish (pagan) wives and children and most of them had intermixed. The people that refused to do this were no longer considered as Jews, and actually became the enemies.

Wikipedia
According to the biblical history Ezra and Nehemiah arrived in Jerusalem in the middle of the 5th century BC, the first empowered by the Persian king to enforce the Torah, the second with the status of governor and a royal mission to restore the walls of the city.[65] The biblical history mentions tension between the returnees and those who had remained in Yehud, the former rebuffing the attempt of the "peoples of the land" to participate in the rebuilding of the Temple; this attitude was based partly on the exclusivism which the exiles had developed while in Babylon and, probably, partly on disputes over property.[66] The careers of Ezra and Nehemiah in the 5th century BC were thus a kind of religious colonisation in reverse, an attempt by one of the many Jewish factions in Babylon to create a self-segregated, ritually pure society inspired by the prophesies of Ezekiel and his followers.[67]
We see this kind of cleansing more than one time in Jewish history. For instance Moses let all his loyal men take the sword to kill all that had been worshiping to other Gods, so they had to kill their own friends and family.
Moses said:
E x o d u s 3 2
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and
said, Who [is] on the Lord’s side? [let] [him]
[come] unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered
themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of
Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, [and]
go in and out from gate to gate throughout the
camp, and slay every man his brother, and every
man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word
of Moses: and there fell of the people that day
about three thousand men.

What you say about Zarathustrianism may be true, King Cyrus was praised as a moderate enlightened ruler. But often new converts are much more fanatical, even more if they live abroad and isolated from their countrymen, and this may have been the cause. for the Persian civilization was more sophisticated than the Canaanite. (The Jews worshiped the Canaanite Gods) If you read the Bible you find a lot of loathing towards pagans and some strong racism. For instance Isaac was loved over his older brother, because Ishmael's mother was Egyptian. And Jacob was loved over his older twin brother, because Esau had a pagan wife. The older brothers lost there birthright. The story is even told that Lot had sex with his daughters in his sleep because there were no Jewish men around to give them children.

Today little is known of Judaism as a converting religion. But in the Roman empire they were fiercely proselyting. Some groups had a real hate against pagans, especially the Greek. In some cities they massacred as much as 150.000 Greeks for the religious cause. Christianity and Islam put an end to Jewish proselyting by putting the death penalty on it. But they did manage to convert the empire of Khazaria, which was a huge nation laying between Christians and Muslims. Most of the Jews today are said to be offspring of these Azkenasis. But that was the end of their conversion practices. They were also very active converters in the Arabian desert, where Zealots converted Arabs and created a small state, that was destroyed by the Byzantines. Mohamed came under the influence of a converted wanderer. Mohamed believed Jews and Arabs would follow a new faith that is why he let his people pray to Jerusalem. But the Jews had no such intentions and Mohamed became mad en told his people to pray to Mekkah instead.

Fanatical Jews were also at the start of Christianity, creating so much unrest and disorder, the Romans first tried to destroy them and when this failed they created a unified religion in which their book was absorbed. A compromise. That is why fundamentalist protestants still say that Catholicism is heathen, and they are trying to restore Judaism in Christianity. And today Judaism is again converting. But like Christianity Judaism is split in liberal and conservative fractions that have different ideas. This split has been there from the beginning, because these religions were forced onto people. The Gnostic Christians were Jews too, but were exterminated. Moderate Loving people keep resisting fundamentalist ideas. So although two people call themselves Christian or Jew their ideas about religion can differ widely. Most Jews became atheist, as a result of the severe commandments.

The war of Gods is not only between religions but also in religions, and other aspects of society like politics. For instance Christianity created some very lovingly movements like the Gnostics, the Cathars or Quakers. They were always fiercely persecuted. So even monotheistic religions are often not as mono as they like to be.

Of course you will never find solid or clear proof in history, the challenge is to look at the red thread that goes through history. Some may see it, some will not. Struggle for power is always a game with a lot of deceit and smoke screens. But we can see repeating patterns as both parties are working towards their goal, either knowingly or unknowingly. But you are right it is impossible to say something definite about Jews or Christians as an entity, as it is not a monolithic group, but divided in opposing camps. But I studied Jewish writings like the Talmud and they are far different from Christianity. The Talmud I would say was not so much made to serve God, but to get away from under his often ridiculous commandments.

This leads to all kind of comical solutions. For instance their God forbids them to work the land every seventh year, Gods year. The land should rest and proceeds should be for the animals and the poor in this year. So the Jews sell the whole of Israel to a Pagan for 1 shekel at the beginning of the year and buy it back for 1 shekel at the end of the year. For pagans are not under this commandment. They live by the commandment to the letter, not with love, but often like someone who signed a contract he hates. It is the most strange religion. That is why Christians say the Talmud is work of the Devil that defiles the holy scripture.

It is very difficult to say who plays what games and for what reason, most of the time it goes completely over our heads, it certainly is not black and white. And both parties try to infiltrate the other camp and destroy it from within. The people that believe in black and white are mere foot soldiers. People will say that all these conflicts are simply about insane people but there is more to it than that.

We also want to understand that any view on worldly matters depends on the level of consciousness that conceiver and receiver use. You can look at the same events and create a different picture in a lower or higher level of understanding. The quality of a Guru is he can show you new things, by letting you see things at one level up. But it still is not the truth. It still is an illusion from a higher viewpoint. What at a lower level seems to be a battle, can be harmonious on a higher level. Even in a healthy well feeling body bacteria, viruses, fungus, and blood cells wage a war, you have no idea of that as long as no party get the upper hand. That is why Vishnu only comes if the balance is truly broken and evil has gotten the upper hand and destruction of the world threatens, like you need a doctor if a virus or bacteria is threatening to destroy the body.

What monotheism sees as a battle between good and evil, Hinduism rather sees as opposing forces working towards harmony: creation and destruction, Love and Order, compassion and Justice. We want to remember that in the Veda's the Deva's and Asura's are both worshiped, and at some point Asura's started to seek power, which is actually in their nature to do so. The Deva's fought them but did not hate them for it. The conflict is in essence a conflict between lower and higher consciousness, the same that takes place in our heart. Even if we want to overcome our lower tendencies, is should not create self-hate.

Jai Ganesha
 
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