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My struggle within..

Fluffy

Fluffy

A fool
I feel like I'm in the same position, spiritually, as you Rebecca. I believe in large parts of the Bible, I try and follow Jesus' teachings yet I reject the OT pretty much and I dislike the organisation of Christianity as a whole. I don't know how Christian that makes me. I am certainly far more Wiccan than I am Christian.

However, there is nothing incompatible about Jesus' teachings and Wicca although there are plenty of Biblical passages that make it harder. I just remember that the Bible is a compilation and not necessarily an accurate reflection of Jesus' teachings. Therefore, I follow the bits that seem right and incorporate them into my Wiccan faith. Most notably, there is a much stronger sense of pacifism with Jesus than there is in Wicca (to me at least) and I find this complements Wiccan traditions very well. I also feel he gives a very useful alternate perspective on the rather elusive god and goddess.
 
Green Gaia

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Flappycat said:
Find a UU congregation. You'd get along with them nicely.
Click to expand...

Rebecca said:
I have never heard of them, See not to open minded, still lots to learn lol. Thanks Flappycat I will check them out.
Click to expand...

Hi Rebecca, you do seem to have some electic beliefs and don't mind seeking truth and comfort from mulitple sources, which is a Unitarian Universalist (UU) trait. However, you do seem to put Christianity and Jesus at the center of your beliefs. So, if you were to consider a UU congregation I would suggest one that is more Christian-centered. Unfortunely you can't really know that unless you visit, but even if their focus is, for example, more humanistic you'll still meet a lot of nice people that maybe you can relate to and can help you on your journey.

I grew up in Kentucky, so I kinda know where you're located and I think the closest UU congregations to you are:

UU Congregation of Owensboro
Members: 24
1221 Cedar St.Parrish Ave & Cedar St.
Owensboro, KY 42301
(270) 684-1224

UU Church of Evansville
Members: 84
2910 E Morgan Ave.
Evansville, IN 47711-4426

Both churches are relatively small, but could have grown from the numbers I found.

Good luck! :)
Amy
 
Solon

Solon

Active Member
I can't recall the exact reference, but I'm certain there is a warning in the NT, possibly in one of the letters against consulting fortune tellers, mediums and the like. If somebody could refresh my memory on this ? It would appear to me that methods of divination are unacceptable to Christanity, and that would surely mean tarot amongst other methods, ie casting runes etc. It suggests to me that to believe in fortune telling is incompatable with Christian values.

Solon
 
Green Gaia

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Solon said:
I can't recall the eaxct reference, but I'm certain there is a warning in the NT, possibly in one of the letters against consulting fortune tellers, mediums and the like. If somebody could refresh my memory on this ? It would appear to me that methods of divination are unacceptable to Christanity, and that would surely mean tarot amongst other methods, ie casting runes etc. It suggests to me that to believe in fortune telling is incompatable with Christian values.

Solon
Click to expand...

From ReligiousTolerance.org:

Christian response to divination:

As in just about every other activity or belief, there are widely divergent teachings within Christianity about the nature of divination and foretelling the future:
  • Conservative denominations generally condemn all divination techniques which use any of the above techniques; i.e. methods which involve mechanical aids or the interpretation of natural signs.
  • Some faith groups, particularly Pentecostals, expect Christians to receive gifts from God which confirm their salvation. One of these is prophecy, as described in 1 Corinthians 12:10. This gift of foretelling the future comes through the person's mind and does not involve mechanical devices.
  • Religious liberals tend to treat divination as harmless activity -- an amusing pastime without any religious significance.

There are a number of instances in the Bible where respected leaders were involved in divining the future, apparently without any condemnations by God. Some are:
  • In Genesis 44:5, Joseph's household manager refers to a silver drinking cup "...in which my lord drinketh and whereby indeed he devineth". Later, Joseph accuses his brothers of stealing the cup, saying "that such a man as I can certainly divine [the identity of the thieves]". These passages show that Joseph engaged in scrying. This technique of foretelling the future was used by Nostradamus and is still used today.
  • The Urim and Thummim were two objects mentioned in Numbers 27:21 and 1 Samuel 28:6 of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were apparently devices (perhaps in the form of flat stones) that the high priest consulted to determine the will of God. They might have worked something like a pair of dice.
  • The prophet Daniel was employed for many years in Babylon as the chief occultist to the king. He was supervisor "of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers". See Daniel 5:11.

On the other hand, there are numerous passages in the Bible that condemn specific divination techniques. These include Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 19:26-26; 19:31; 20:6; Deuteronomy 18:10-11; Isaiah 8:19 and Malachai 3:5. The passage in Deuteronomy is perhaps the most important. They forbade the Israelites from engaging in eight specific practices. One translation is:

"There shall not be found among you anyone that...useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.(KJV)​

Various other translations of the Bible use the following terms or phrases here: augur, black magic, calls up the dead, charm, consults with spirits, fortune teller, interpret omens, look for omens, magician, medium, sorcerer, soothsayer, spiritist, weaves or casts spells, witchcraft, and wizard.

Clearly, translators have had a great deal of difficulty selecting unique English words or short phrases to match the 8 original Hebrew words:
  1. yid'oni Making contact with spirits (not of God)
  2. sho'el 'ov: Making contact with the dead
  3. qosem q'samim: Foretelling the future by using lots or a similar system
  4. m'onen: Predicting the future by interpreting signs in nature
  5. m'nachesh: Enchanting (perhaps related to nachash, a snake)
  6. chover chavar: Casting spells by magical knot tying
  7. m'khaseph: evil sorcery; using spoken spells to harm other people
  8. doresh 'el hametim: "One who asks the dead", probably via another method than sho'el 'ov

Of these 8 prohibitions, most appear to refer to contacting the spirits of dead people, or to perform evil sorcery which harms others. Two (#3 and 4) seem to relate to divination:
  • qosem q'samim: Casting stones or sticks and predicting the future by their position. This would seem to condemn I Ching, runes, tarot cards, and similar techniques.
  • m'onen: Foretelling the future by looking for signs in nature (e.g. predicting the harshness of a winter by looking at moss on trees, or fur thickness on animals in the wild, or whether the groundhog sees his shadow)

Other currently used methods of foretelling the future, such as tea cup reading, palm reading, tarot cards, runes etc. are not specifically mentioned.

The Biblical passages appear to apply to persons who are directly engaged in the various practices (e.g. mediums, channelers, astrologers, etc.); they do not seem to refer to people who simply observe the activity.
 
Solon

Solon

Active Member
Thanks for the references; most interesting and your certainly well read on this subject, I had thought to find some specific mention in say, the letters of Timothy, but perhaps my memory is shaky here. Personally, divination is an accepted part of what is termed ' Paganism' today, so I don't have any problem with it. My friend and I are given every week to detalied analysis of Astrological trends. All Anceint religions had divination as playing an important part in their beliefs. In particular, one can cite the oracle of Delphi in Greece as being world famous, For the Ancient Egyptians, oracles played a major part in the various cults of the Gods. Amun of Thebes, was thought very highly of in this respect.

I hope the poster, Rebecca manages to resolve the inner conflict caused by having an interest in divination.

Solon
 
Ardent Listener

Ardent Listener

Active Member
Rebecca said:
Am I a true Christian? I believe in God and that Jesus was his son. But I also believe in some of the Wiccan beliefs. (I once was a Wiccan.) I love some of the Buddist sayings.
I have trouble with my fellow Christians anti-gay stance. I have alot of tattoos and most Christians judge me for that.​
I believe in the power of crystals. I feel torn in my beliefs. Your thoughts welcome. Thank You.
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I too believe in the power of crystals. As a child I had a radio that ran on crystal energy only.:D

As for tattoos, they are not my cup of tea at all, but those judging Christains need to read their Bibles a little closer.:tsk:

Are your fellow Christains looking at the beams in their own eyes too?

Those Buddist saying are great, aren't they?

If your Wiccan beliefs make you a better person then that is wonderful.
 
jeffrey

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
Thank you Maize, Karma to you! You and the others that have posted have been a big help. She hasn't been this excited for a while, struggling with the problems we've had with churches. The baptists telling up that Harry Potter is evil and every sermon bashing gays. The Catholics telling us that in their eyes we aren't married and wanting to contact my ex and ask her why we got divorced. That was 18 years ago and quite messy. There are things with both the Baptists and Catholics I like.But disagree with too
 
Evenstar

Evenstar

The Wicked Christian
Well now I have lots to think about. Fluffy I am interested on how you combine the two beliefs? And Mazie I will be checking out UU.
Im suprised how many people feel the same way as myself​
michel said if I believe (which I do) and love Christ I am a Christian, maybe thats my problem, I dont know how to love something I cant see, so I will work on this lol. When I see a sunset I think Mother Earth, not God who I know created everything, see where the conflict lies? ah well :)
 
Flappycat

Flappycat

Well-Known Member
Good. If that fails, I've heard that the United Methodists are nice about that sort of thing. They insist that you fall in line with certain "essential" things but think that allowing minor differences of opinion is conducive to overall unity and, besides, makes for good conversation on slow evenings. They'd probably respond to your odd beliefs by dragging you along to whatever activity or picnic is on their agenda to use you for discussion fodder in case they get bored, so you'd be more than welcome. They're also one of those churches that are more or less on the side of the gay community.
 
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