science (in)tolerance

Ryan2065 · Nov 8, 2005

ZeldaManiac said:
And hey, even if it really is all scrap, even if I am living a lie, it sure beats me going around thinking I was a cosmic accident with no point in life, no destiny and no real reason to value anything.

Oh oh, can we have AJ and Zelda duke it out in One on One debates? They know nothing about each others lifestyles, it should be grand!

"You, sir, have a tail."
"No I don't, but you, sir, have whiskers!"

=)

ZeldaManiac said:
A few examples are pen levetating themselves and writing on paper with no force seen by us "mortals", and people going into hypnotic trances and talking fluently in languenges completely unknown to them.

I agree, if any of these things happened then I would be amazed... But there is no solid evidence any of this has ever happened... Just speculation =P Most people who talk in "tongues" talk in either langauges they have been taught but say they forgot or in "languages" that have been dead for hundreds of years so no scholar can actually say if they are real languages or not.

ZeldaManiac said:
Just don't go stabbing at me for believing what I do, even if it is presposterous. It works for me and that's that.

Hrm, I'll give you frubals for that =)

Scott1 · Nov 8, 2005

AtheistAJ said:
Now you're generalizing, as that's not the way people who are trying to teach ID in schools believe. Most of them are Catholic, that's the only reason they are so fired up about the subject.

Come on.... do some research.... PLEASE!

"Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage."
INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION
COMMUNION AND STEWARDSHIP:
Human Persons Created in the Image of God

JerryL · Nov 8, 2005

That's true. But this shouldn't be taken to the extreme and one must not say "that they ignore reason altogether". I find some atheist making this mistake.

A fair point. I think, though, it's less "how much he abandons reason" and more "how often".

Given what he percieves as a theologic-reason conflict; reason gets thrown completely out the door. This does not stop him from thinking he has a gas leak when he comes home to a gas-smell.

JerryL · Nov 8, 2005

Anywho, just so you know, I do believe the bible and take it literally.

So you beleve that the sky is a hammered expanse seperating waters above from waters below? You believe that there is a wherehouse somewhere that God stores hail in to use in times of war. You believe there will be a many-headed monster coming out of the ocean in the future. You believe that the Earth rests on pillars, and has corners. You believe that the sun moves around a stationary Earth?

I won't even ask what you think of the whore of Babylon.

Having the knowledge that there's some really big powerful dude out there that's willing to help me out with anything I'm going through, a guy that cares about me, it's pretty cool to have.

Worked well for Job.

Oh, and just so you know, there is a ton of evidense supporting the idea of another dimention/realm/whatever you want to call it.

Sure is, but none of it is Biblical.

ZeldaManiac · Nov 9, 2005

Do I believe that the sky is a hammered expanse seperating waters above from waters below? Before I say yes, let me tell you that in the genesis, there was a cloud layer so thick over the earth, it was almost the same as having a giant ocean above you. These dense clouds were supposedly what caused the great flood. Anywho, yes, I do believe the (visable) sky was a void between the waters below and the "waters" above.

Do I believe that there is a wherehouse somewhere that God stores hail in to use in times of war? For the sake of logic, I won't answer that. Just a few too many flaws with the intelligence of a question like that to provide a decent answer.

Do I believe there will be a many-headed monster coming out of the ocean in the future? Sure, why not? The ocean is earth's biggest mystery after all, and we're continually finding new species in the deep dark depths. Heck, I even believe in the Loch Ness Monster. And unless you can prove me beyond the shadow of a doubt WRONG, I will continue to believe. Thank you.

And finally, do I believe that the Earth rests on pillars, and has corners, and that the sun moves around a stationary Earth? Now where in the bible does it say that? Just because I believe in God doesn't mean I'm stupid enough to reject truths such as the world being round or the fact it is indeed orbiting the sun.

On a final note, thank you so very much for ripping me apart. I really appreciate it.

Scuba Pete · Nov 9, 2005

AtheistAJ said:
On the other hand, scientist always say things like "We respect their beliefs...".

I have found that MANY scientists are as creed-biased as you are. This attitude is nothing more than religious bigotry, disguised as an innocent question. It is JUST as deplorable as racism, sexism or any other type of bigotry that so many feel is "justified". Makes me want to puke on your feet. The sad part is, so many are quick to recognise this intolerance in religious people and fail to see it in those who reject religion.

JerryL · Nov 9, 2005

Do I believe that the sky is a hammered expanse seperating waters above from waters below? Before I say yes, let me tell you that in the genesis, there was a cloud layer so thick over the earth, it was almost the same as having a giant ocean above you. These dense clouds were supposedly what caused the great flood. Anywho, yes, I do believe the (visable) sky was a void between the waters below and the "waters" above.

No. Genesis mentions no clouds... nor is "clouds so thick it's almost an ocean" a literal version of "expanse seperating the water above from the water below".

Recall that in the beginning there was only the deep. God seperated the deep (created a "bubble", if you will) and called the seperation "sky".

Do I believe that there is a wherehouse somewhere that God stores hail in to use in times of war? For the sake of logic, I won't answer that. Just a few too many flaws with the intelligence of a question like that to provide a decent answer.

The Bible claims it exists, you claim to believe the literal Bible. All I'm asking is if you believe literally the claim that there's a wherehouse that God keeps hail in for us in times of war. A simple "yes" or "no" would suffice.

And finally, do I believe that the Earth rests on pillars, and has corners, and that the sun moves around a stationary Earth? Now where in the bible does it say that? Just because I believe in God doesn't mean I'm stupid enough to reject truths such as the world being round or the fact it is indeed orbiting the sun.

"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble." - Job 9:6, "When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm." Psalm 75:3

"I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you." Isa 41:9, "and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth" Revelation 20:8

For heliocentracism, and whether a non-stupid person could honestly believe, when confronted with the teachings of Gallellio and Copernicus that the Sun moved around the Earth:

"People gave ear to an upstart astrologer who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon. Whoever wishes to appear clever must devise some new system, which of all systems is of course the very best. This fool [or 'man'] wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred Scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth." - Martin Luther

"Those who assert that 'the earth moves and turns'...[are] motivated by 'a spirit of bitterness, contradiction, and faultfinding;' possessed by the devil, they aimed 'to pervert the order of nature.'" - John Calvin

See also modern geo-centracists: http://www.fixedearth.com/

JerryL · Nov 9, 2005

It [religious bigotry] is JUST as deplorable as racism, sexism or any other type of bigotry that so many feel is "justified".

So if someone believed that mass murder was OK, you should respect their beliefs or you are a bigot?

What if someone just firmly believed that there was an Easter Bunny?

ZeldaManiac · Nov 9, 2005

JerryL said:
No. Genesis mentions no clouds... nor is "clouds so thick it's almost an ocean" a literal version of "expanse seperating the water above from the water below".

Recall that in the beginning there was only the deep. God seperated the deep (created a "bubble", if you will) and called the seperation "sky".

Ok, if I knew you were going to be so painfully maticulous about the text in the bible, I would've explained it to you in simpler terms. Now, in Genesis 1:6, it says that God say "let there be a firmament" or an "expanse" between the waters below and the waters above. Now, it gave no further explanation, so the reader and people called "creationists" have concluded that it was to divide a large layer of cloud and the ocean below. There are several other parts in the bible that support this idea (that means just because it doesn't say anything in Genesis deasn't mean that's that and it won't say it anywhere else). Also, if you really think I am stupid enough to be that maticulous, then you must think that I believe that God is a literal rock just because there is a referense to him as a rock in Psalms, or that the parable of the prodigal son or the good samaritan really happened just because it didn't say anywhere that it specifically didn't happen.

JerryL said:
The Bible claims it exists, you claim to believe the literal Bible. All I'm asking is if you believe literally the claim that there's a wherehouse that God keeps hail in for us in times of war. A simple "yes" or "no" would suffice.

Tell me, where in the bible does it say that God went to the warehouse in his backyard to grab some hail so he could start a war? Give me a convincing reference and I'll give you an answer.

JerryL said:
"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble." - Job 9:6, "When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm." Psalm 75:3

JerryL said:

"I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you." Isa 41:9, "and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth" Revelation 20:8"

Click to expand...

Wow, you're really good at taking stuff out of context. Either that or you don't know the difference between metaphores and logic. Or it could be both...

JerryL said:

For heliocentracism, and whether a non-stupid person could honestly believe, when confronted with the teachings of Gallellio and Copernicus that the Sun moved around the Earth:

"People gave ear to an upstart astrologer who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon. Whoever wishes to appear clever must devise some new system, which of all systems is of course the very best. This fool [or 'man'] wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred Scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth." - Martin Luther

"Those who assert that 'the earth moves and turns'...[are] motivated by 'a spirit of bitterness, contradiction, and faultfinding;' possessed by the devil, they aimed 'to pervert the order of nature.'" - John Calvin

See also modern geo-centracists: http://www.fixedearth.com/

Click to expand...

Yeah, me taking the bible literally has so much to do with what Martin Luther and John Calvin had to say about the geocentric and heliocentric models. I must've forgotten there was a book of Martin Luther and John Calvin in the bible.

Scuba Pete · Nov 10, 2005

JerryL said:
So if someone believed that mass murder was OK, you should respect their beliefs or you are a bigot?

What if someone just firmly believed that there was an Easter Bunny?

In the former; murder is never acceptable. I am sorry you don't understand that concept. Most war mongers and bigots don't either!

In the second; what about the Easter Bunny? The point is that MANY scientists and those who would pit science against God are incredibly condescending and even antagonistic towards theists. It is obvious that they are revulsed by my beliefs and do not hesitate to belittle them or me. There are a few on this forum (most on ignore) that practice this ad nauseum. Sucks to be them. The sad part is, they just don't see it! They feel free to renounce religious bigots and never get a clue that they are indeed an anti-religious bigot. There is no excuse for meanness just because you disagree. Bigots are bigots, no matter HOW justified they feel.

JerryL · Nov 10, 2005

Ok, if I knew you were going to be so painfully maticulous about the text in the bible

Meticulous? Just literal. In the expanse between the waters is set the sun, moon, and stars. The "waters above" are above all of these. Where is the water above the sun, moon, and stars?

Tell me, where in the bible does it say that God went to the warehouse in his backyard to grab some hail so he could start a war? Give me a convincing reference and I'll give you an answer.

""Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail, which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle? " - Job 38

Wow, you're really good at taking stuff out of context. Either that or you don't know the difference between metaphores and logic.

I know the difference between "metaphor" and "literal". You claimed to read it literally. Which is it?

Yeah, me taking the bible literally has so much to do with what Martin Luther and John Calvin had to say about the geocentric and heliocentric models. I must've forgotten there was a book of Martin Luther and John Calvin in the bible.

Don't change the subject.

Just because I believe in God doesn't mean I'm stupid enough to reject truths such as the world being round or the fact it is indeed orbiting the sun.

So you think that Calvin and Luther were stupid? They rejected that.

michel · Nov 10, 2005

*quick look in, thinks, "man, this is both heady and heavy", discretely shuts door and tries to appear nonchalant as he walks away*

Scott1 · Nov 10, 2005

NetDoc said:
They feel free to renounce religious bigots and never get a clue that they are indeed an anti-religious bigot.

AMEN! It's funny to see everyone all warm and fuzzy talking about "respecting others" and "being tolerant" when it comes to promoting their cause.... but they don't see any problem with attacking Christians.... and God forbid if you're not gay.... or **gasp** white.... or the worst of all a -Christian white heterosexual male- ! Horror of horrors!

Bigots are bigots, no matter HOW justified they feel.

Here's praying that peace and tolerance can work both ways.

Quiddity · Nov 10, 2005

Scott1 said:
AMEN! It's funny to see everyone all warm and fuzzy talking about "respecting others" and "being tolerant" when it comes to promoting their cause.... but they don't see any problem with attacking Christians.... and God forbid if you're not gay.... or **gasp** white.... or the worst of all a -Christian white heterosexual male- ! Horror of horrors!

Come on Scott, who are you kidding? You know you are handled with velvet gloves and get it easy...The gig is up..

Theotokos pray for us
~Victor

JerryL · Nov 10, 2005

AMEN! It's funny to see everyone all warm and fuzzy talking about "respecting others" and "being tolerant" when it comes to promoting their cause

BTW, I don't believe I've ever argued that we should respect all views, and "tolerance" is pretty narrow.

ZeldaManiac · Nov 10, 2005

JerryL, I can see that trying to explain things to you is of no use, because you seem more bent on making me mad than actually taking me seriously. So don't expect me to try and say anything sensible to you in the future.

JerryL · Nov 10, 2005

ZeldaManiac said:
JerryL, I can see that trying to explain things to you is of no use, because you seem more bent on making me mad than actually taking me seriously. So don't expect me to try and say anything sensible to you in the future.

I'm sure that's easier for you to believe. It saves you having to defend your (already non-sensable) position.

I offered a specific critique, and supported it with detailed examples. I'm sorry to hear that reality makes you mad... it must make for a difficult life.

Scuba Pete · Nov 10, 2005

Scott,

It is indeed a truism. It's easier for us to see the intolerance of those who criticise us, rather than our own. The more you can see your own faults the more tolerant you tend to be of the faults of others.

JerryL said:
I'm sure that's easier for you to believe. It saves you having to defend your (already non-sensable) position.

And he offered a critique of your methodology, and instead of looking inward, you have chosen to attack his character. Few people offer insight into your psyche and when they do they charge a lot. You would do well to heed his observations.

JerryL · Nov 10, 2005

NetDoc said:
And he offered a critique of your methodology, and instead of looking inward, you have chosen to attack his character. Few people offer insight into your psyche and when they do they charge a lot. You would do well to heed his observations.

That's just a lie.

Here's the entireity of his post:
"JerryL, I can see that trying to explain things to you is of no use, because you seem more bent on making me mad than actually taking me seriously. So don't expect me to try and say anything sensible to you in the future."

I'm looking for a comment of methodology. I see none. All I see is a (to quote you) attack on my charicter.

Now let's look at your post and see how it contributes to the topic... oh wait! It doesn't. If you want to chime in, how about discussing the topic (and stop lying).

ZeldaManiac · Nov 10, 2005

Thanks for defending me, NetDoc. Jerry's reply to you confirms my suspicions of him witch-hunting me. I'll be sure to watch out for people like Jerry in the future.

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