To kill or not to kill?

Is it ever right to kill? Ever? Here are a few scenarios.

1. Your life is threatened by a man with a gun. Trying to survive will ultimately result in his death. Is it okay to do so?
2. A gun is pointed at your daughter. Is it okay to fight this man to the death?
3. A gun is pointed at a random man at an ATM and he is about to be executed. Is it okay to fight for his life and possible kill the man with the gun?
4. A man has a gun to the head of a little girl that you don't know. Is it okay to fight for her life and possible end that of the man?
5. A man has 30 pounds of dynamite strapped to his chest and is in a children's hospital. You are a master sniper set up 300 yards from the scene and have a shot on his head. If he doesn't die immediately he could press the button. Is it wrong to shoot him?

How do you personally feel about these situations and how you would react and further what do you think the Dharma say's of this and what an enlightened person would do.

I don't know what the thing an enlightened being would do is, but I would fight the person - to the death if need be.

My ahiṃsa extends to others. In my opinion, not fighting someone who is going to harm an innocent person is a form of hiṃsa in itself. In short, don't hurt the innocent, but kick the **** out of the wicked if it means preserving peace.

meet the agressor with an equal amount of force. if his threat is nonlethal, then apply nonlethal force. if its lethal force (as is all of your scenarios) then apply lethal force.

My personal feeling is that I am willing to incur the karmic effects of preventing the man with the gun from harming my family, or even a random stranger. If I can do that without killing him, then that is a lesser karmic burden for me to bear.

Friend zerO,

To kill or not to kill?

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The question asked is not *existential* and so not related to the path.
There is nothing as *death* so the question of killing is inconsequential.
The situations described are all mind created *delusions*.
Watch the MIND!
Love & rgds

In buddhism, is abortion condoned?

Kathryn said:

In buddhism, is abortion condoned?

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I'm not sure you can use the term condoned. Basically, EVERY choice you make is your responsibility. For a female, if you choose to get pregnant (or choose not to make sure you DON'T get pregnant), that is your responsibility. If you then choose to end that pregnancy, that is also your responsibility. For a male, if you choose to get a female pregnant (or choose not to make sure she DOESN'T get pregnant), same deal. You will receive the karmic effects of those causes (those choices) in your life, no matter which choices you make. That's the way the universe works (according to Buddhism, anyway). If you ask a Buddhist clergy person, my guess is that most of them would tell you that they would not recommend an abortion, but that it is your choice ultimately.

I thought of a new question earlier this morning. What if a man points a gun at your daughter and say's he'll kill her if you don't kill an entirely innocent man you've never met before? He is positioned far enough away to where if you attempt to attack him, your daughter will surely die. Should you refuse to kill the man and in turn indirectly cause the death of your daughter?

zer0 said:

I thought of a new question earlier this morning. What if a man points a gun at your daughter and say's he'll kill her if you don't kill an entirely innocent man you've never met before? He is positioned far enough away to where if you attempt to attack him, your daughter will surely die. Should you refuse to kill the man and in turn indirectly cause the death of your daughter?

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I'm curious what purpose questions like these serve? I highly doubt 99.9% of the population will ever encounter a situation even remotely resembling this, and I really have no idea how I would react in such a situation.

What difference would the answer to such a question make, anyway (other than to satisfy your curiousity)?

Engyo said:

I'm curious what purpose questions like these serve? I highly doubt 99.9% of the population will ever encounter a situation even remotely resembling this, and I really have no idea how I would react in such a situation.

What difference would the answer to such a question make, anyway (other than to satisfy your curiousity)?

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Came here to say this basically, but more directly and about all hypotheticals. It is silly to get into these "what-if" scenarios if one is practicing the Dharma. Every person will deal with the situations that happen in the now in their own way.

(to use a hypothetical ) people who want to get into hypothetical situations and how they would deal with them especially don't know how to deal with them when they come.

Friend zerO,

I thought of a new question earlier this morning. What if a man points a gun at your daughter and say's he'll kill her if you don't kill an entirely innocent man you've never met before? He is positioned far enough away to where if you attempt to attack him, your daughter will surely die. Should you refuse to kill the man and in turn indirectly cause the death of your daughter?

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Mind by nature thinks as it knows no other activity to be involved with.
However responding to your question.
Firstly never married and also do not have any daughter besides even if the gun was pointing towards my head, would ask him to shoot first and ask questions later.
Every individual is involved in his own karma which like action has a reaction and so each one's karma leads him to the position that the individual is at this moment and have no power to change other's karma and being a part of the *whole* and so a part of the other person too shall request him to continue with his activity so that he may realsie what he is doing.
Love & rgds

Agreed re what is the point about the hypothetical situations. If you are looking for a justification for killing, you can surely find one. However, if we look at Buddha's example, in one of his previous lives, he was in a boat with 100 people and with his clairvoyance, he knew that one of these 100 would kill everyone on board. Out of compassion for the all 100, including the potential killer, he killed the potential killer. He killed the potential killer so that the 99 would be saved and that the potential killer did not accumulate the karma of killing the 99. As killing has negative karma, Buddha (then in his previous life) received the negative karma of killing, but because his good karma outweighed his negative karma, he went to hell for one day.

This story tells us that we can never escape our karma - whether for the best motivations. We make our choices as others who have responded to this thread has said, and we will live with the consequences.

zer0 said:

Is it ever right to kill? Ever? Here are a few scenarios.

1. Your life is threatened by a man with a gun. Trying to survive will ultimately result in his death. Is it okay to do so?

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You cannot know for certain what will lead to his death in advance. Self defence is morally defendable, as one has the right to life and liberty, and thus to defend against things that threaten that. In this situation i dont think its ok to kill the other man purposefully. His death might result from an accident, or only after a true attempt to reach a non fatal conclusion on your part.

zer0 said:

2. A gun is pointed at your daughter. Is it okay to fight this man to the death?

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You can and should fight the man. Doing nothing here is the worst option. I still dont think you should be fighting with the primary aim of ending his life.
You must try to disarm, or render him harmless by non lethal means first. You dont have the right just to take his life away. You can never underestimate how easily it is to misunderstand a situation, especially when you have only a few heated seconds to come to a conclusion. Perhaps he had no intention of ever following through, and it was a bluff to get something. A desperate man resorting to desperate measures, and going in way over his head.

zer0 said:

3. A gun is pointed at a random man at an ATM and he is about to be executed. Is it okay to fight for his life and possible kill the man with the gun?

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Fighting for his life is admirable, and in reality, not something many would do. If you realise you have a tactical advantage you should act. Although situational factors might make such a move foolish, and thus its not a moral necessity to jump into something like this, but you at least need to alert the emergency services. Yet again i dont think one should be motivated or aim to kill the attacker. Understanding that his death is a possibility in the struggle is one thing, but thats not the same as consciously planning to kill.

zer0 said:

4. A man has a gun to the head of a little girl that you don't know. Is it okay to fight for her life and possible end that of the man?

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Same as above, but with more moral weight behind an intervention as it is a child. Morally sound to intervene with knowledge of unfavourable outcomes, but one should strive for a non lethal conclusion.

zer0 said:

5. A man has 30 pounds of dynamite strapped to his chest and is in a children's hospital. You are a master sniper set up 300 yards from the scene and have a shot on his head. If he doesn't die immediately he could press the button. Is it wrong to shoot him?

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A lot of background and situational info will lead you to how you act. Why are you there as a sniper in the first place?
I think that if the risk of an explosion is high, efforts to negotiate failed, background on the person suggests high risk and so on, one must take the shot, being your duty as a professional and member of society. Not something one should do lightly or with cavalier ease.
As life is not an exact science, one has to balance the sureness you have that his intention to suicide bomb is real and imminent, thus nullifying his right to life, or at least dampening the respect one has to give to another sentient being over their right to keep their life, with the virtue of preserving the lives of children. It will be this fine tipping point, that will allow you to take the shot.

Chuda said:

Agreed re what is the point about the hypothetical situations. If you are looking for a justification for killing, you can surely find one. However, if we look at Buddha's example, in one of his previous lives, he was in a boat with 100 people and with his clairvoyance, he knew that one of these 100 would kill everyone on board. Out of compassion for the all 100, including the potential killer, he killed the potential killer. He killed the potential killer so that the 99 would be saved and that the potential killer did not accumulate the karma of killing the 99. As killing has negative karma, Buddha (then in his previous life) received the negative karma of killing, but because his good karma outweighed his negative karma, he went to hell for one day.

This story tells us that we can never escape our karma - whether for the best motivations. We make our choices as others who have responded to this thread has said, and we will live with the consequences.

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Motivation is key to the action. When we kill out of self defence or necessity, it is not because we wanted to but because of a lack of choice. However, I do wonder if it is better to allow ourselves to be killed rather than to kill because we have created the karma to be killed? If we are killed instead of killing, we do not incur the negative karma of killing. I'm still stuck with the killing for the sake of others though. I like the story by Chuda of Buddha's previous life action - that he killed with a pure motive even though he knew full well the consequences. I guess that's something useful to learn from.

zer0 said:

I thought of a new question earlier this morning. What if a man points a gun at your daughter and say's he'll kill her if you don't kill an entirely innocent man you've never met before? He is positioned far enough away to where if you attempt to attack him, your daughter will surely die. Should you refuse to kill the man and in turn indirectly cause the death of your daughter?

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I like what-ifs, so here is my take on that.
You are responsible for your actions and/or inactions.
Your action will/would kill the "innocent man".
Your inaction may/could result in the death of your daughter.
Actual always outweighs potential.
The actual (will/would) has greater (personal) responsibility.

For extra credit: Do you kill the killer if he killed your daughter?
It brings no change to the event for which you are killing him, so that could only be done for an emotional reason only. Emotions are ego based and so to do so would be self serving. If your intention was to prevent him from doing harm to others, then that is a more ahimsa(ish) stance and if the only way to stop him was to kill him then your question becomes 'how great is your dedication to the belief that ending him is putting an end to further suffering'.

zer0 said:

Is it ever right to kill? Ever? Here are a few scenarios.

5. A man has 30 pounds of dynamite strapped to his chest and is in a children's hospital. You are a master sniper set up 300 yards from the scene and have a shot on his head. If he doesn't die immediately he could press the button. Is it wrong to shoot him?

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salaam friend,

What have you done with your life that you find yourself a master sniper?

For questions 2-4, a shepherd takes care of the sheep.

For question 1, I have a story.

There was a great warrior in the time of swords. This warrior and his comrads had laid seige to a city. One day they broke through. The people ran every direction scattering, trying to avoid the warrior and his blade. With confidence the warrior strode through the town until he spied one old man sitting and working. The warrior strode over to the man, lifted his sword for a blow and shouted: Old Man, don't you know I have the power to kill you?

The man replied softly: Don't you know I have the power to be killed?

The warrior lowered his sword and with a bit less confidence went on his way.

This same sort of story is told of the Sufi Attar. In his case, he was killed. It is the same story none the less.

wa salaam

sirat

ps - If I were walking on a path one day and found The Buddha, I would kill him.

I have no any idea about this thread.