Is Hell eternal?

lilithu · Sep 18, 2005

OK, I grew up being taught by some that if one didn't accept Jesus Christ as one's savior then one would be cast into a firey pit and burn in the flames of hell forever. As I grew older I met other Christians who believe that hell is only for the really bad people, and good people will go to heaven whether they believed in Christ or not. And then I met Christians who believed that there is no hell, that God's love is so great that everyone would go to heaven.

Everyone believed that their view was right and the other views were wrong. But when I looked at the bible I saw passages that supported each view. It seemed to me that the bible itself was contradictory, open to multiple interpretations, and people just selectively paid attention to what they wanted to see in it.

But tonight I heard a new view (new for me anyway). It says that yes, those who do not believe in Christ and those who were bad will go to hell. But hell is not forever. Those people who do go to hell will "burn off" their sins if they were bad. (Talk about suffering being redemptive!!) Or they will see the error of their ways and accept Christ as savior. Either way, everyone will eventually leave hell. Everyone will eventually be saved.

I like this view because I like parsimony and this interpretation may be able to reconcile what I had thought were biblical contradictions. But I don't know about it's scriptural validity. What do you guys think? Does it hold water? Please note: I put this in the biblical debate forum because I do want any claims to be backed up by scripture.

Katzpur · Sep 18, 2005

lilithu said:
OK, I grew up being taught by some that if one didn't accept Jesus Christ as one's savior then one would be cast into a firey pit and burn in the flames of hell forever. As I grew older I met other Christians who believe that hell is only for the really bad people, and good people will go to heaven whether they believed in Christ or not. And then I met Christians who believed that there is no hell, that God's love is so great that everyone would go to heaven.

Everyone believed that their view was right and the other views were wrong. But when I looked at the bible I saw passages that supported each view. It seemed to me that the bible itself was contradictory, open to multiple interpretations, and people just selectively paid attention to what they wanted to see in it.

But tonight I heard a new view (new for me anyway). It says that yes, those who do not believe in Christ and those who were bad will go to hell. But hell is not forever. Those people who do go to hell will "burn off" their sins if they were bad. (Talk about suffering being redemptive!!) Or they will see the error of their ways and accept Christ as savior. Either way, everyone will eventually leave hell. Everyone will eventually be saved.

I like this view because I like parsimony and this interpretation may be able to reconcile what I had thought were biblical contradictions. But I don't know about it's scriptural validity. What do you guys think? Does it hold water? Please note: I put this in the biblical debate forum because I do want any claims to be backed up by scripture.

Briefly (since it's after midnight for me), I think this viewpoint is correct and substantiated by scripture. Most Christians that I am aware of believe that, during the three-day period during which His body lay in the tomb, He visited the "spirits in prison." 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6 refer to this visit. The "spirit prison" was nothing more than "hell" for those who had died without a knowledge of Jesus Christ. They had, during their lifetimes, committed sins for which they were unable to pay the price of forgiveness. Those who accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ were released from this prison. Hell was, for them, a temporary state.

I believe (since there is absolutely no evidence to the contrary) that this prison (or hell) continues to exist today. It is a part of the Spirit World where the spirits of all mankind go to await the resurrection. Also found within the confines of the Spirit World is Paradise. This is where the spirits of those who lived righteously exist in a state of peace and happiness until their bodies are resurrected. While Jesus Christ is no longer there himself, those who know of His Gospel are sharing it with those who do not. In this way, all who have ever lived will ultimately have the opportunity to be released from hell.

When Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church He was going to establish, He was speaking specifically of the fact that His Gospel would continue to be taught in the Spirit World. The vast majority of Christians today understand "the gates of hell" to be referring to the powers of Satan or to be a hyperbole meaning "nothing" (i.e. "nothing shall prevail against my Church). But to His audience -- and in understanding scripture, it is essential that we remember who the audience was -- the phrase "the gates of hell" meant nothing any more ominous than the entrance to the Spirit World or the residence of departed spirits. In other words, Jesus was saying that even the gates of hell would not prevent His Gospel from being spread. It would be taught in hell as well as on earth.

Eventually, all will stand before God to be judged. But I don't believe that even those who ultimately reject Jesus' message will end up in Hell forever. I believe that for the vast majority of God's children, there will be at least some degree of glory following the resurrection. Not all will be given exactly the same reward or the same opportunities for further progression, but very few will actually end up in a permanent Hell of any kind (either a literal burning or a state of mind). I fully expect to see plenty of good Buddhists, Muslims, and pagans in heaven!

michel · Sep 18, 2005

I agree with katzpur, although I am one who believes that hell is the mere absence of God.:shout

Katzpur · Sep 18, 2005

michel said:
I agree with katzpur, although I am one who believes that hell is the mere absence of God.:shout

Actually, I'm not convinced that Hell is a place of eternal burning either. I think my definition would probably be pretty close to yours.

Lady Crimson · Sep 19, 2005

so, ok....what if I were a very good person, but just didn't believe, let's say I were and atheist, and I died and went to Hell (whatever it may be) because I don't believe in God. And after a couple of eons, Jesus comes for a visit to see who will follow him. So, ok, after seeing Jesus I know He is real, but what if I chose to trust myself more than Him, to believe in me, in my powers, as I have been doing for so long. Does that mean that I will remain in Hell, just because I chose not to follow Jesuse, and even though I was and still am a good person?

Quiddity · Sep 19, 2005

Lady Crimson said:
so, ok....what if I were a very good person, but just didn't believe, let's say I were and atheist, and I died and went to Hell (whatever it may be) because I don't believe in God. And after a couple of eons, Jesus comes for a visit to see who will follow him. So, ok, after seeing Jesus I know He is real, but what if I chose to trust myself more than Him, to believe in me, in my powers, as I have been doing for so long. Does that mean that I will remain in Hell, just because I chose not to follow Jesuse, and even though I was and still am a good person?

Even then I wouldn't even claim to know the conclusion of your eternal resting place. But you do seem to potray yourself like a god.

~Victor

Katzpur · Sep 19, 2005

Lady Crimson said:
so, ok....what if I were a very good person, but just didn't believe, let's say I were and atheist, and I died and went to Hell (whatever it may be) because I don't believe in God. And after a couple of eons, Jesus comes for a visit to see who will follow him. So, ok, after seeing Jesus I know He is real, but what if I chose to trust myself more than Him, to believe in me, in my powers, as I have been doing for so long. Does that mean that I will remain in Hell, just because I chose not to follow Jesuse, and even though I was and still am a good person?

According to LDS belief (I can't speak for other Christians), you would go to Heaven and would receive a portion of God's glory. Heaven, for you, would be infinitely more wonderful than you can possibly imagine at this time. You would receive "Salvation" but not "Exaltation," which is this "fullness of salvation." Exaltation is reserved for those who not only had faith in Christ (whether they learned of Him during mortality or in the Spirit World) and who were obedient to His commandments and received all of the savings ordinances. (I know that leaves the topic hanging. If you would like more detail, please just ask.)

Lady Crimson · Sep 20, 2005

you do seem to potray yourself like a god.

when i said that i believe in my powers I did not mean that i had super powers or such, but i have been surviving for eons in Hell just believing in myself. (or at least, that's how the story goes

)

Thank you, Kathryn, good answer.

Kowalski · Sep 20, 2005

Katzpur said:
According to LDS belief (I can't speak for other Christians), you would go to Heaven and would receive a portion of God's glory. Heaven, for you, would be infinitely more wonderful than you can possibly imagine at this time. You would receive "Salvation" but not "Exaltation," which is this "fullness of salvation." Exaltation is reserved for those who not only had faith in Christ (whether they learned of Him during mortality or in the Spirit World) and who were obedient to His commandments and received all of the savings ordinances. (I know that leaves the topic hanging. If you would like more detail, please just ask.)

Do you or anyone else know anybody whose has been in hell, no ! Oh well then, Hell must remain a purely hypothetical notion, totally unproven and without any reality other than the imgination. But if you want to see a place as like as hell maybe, go watch the movie' Event Horizon' and advance it frame by frame through the hell scenes, now that's how it ought to be for sinners.

Hell, the real hell, is in being alive.

Cheers

K

michel · Sep 20, 2005

Kowalski said:
Do you or anyone else know anybody whose has been in hell, no ! Oh well then, Hell must remain a purely hypothetical notion, totally unproven and without any reality other than the imgination. But if you want to see a place as like as hell maybe, go watch the movie' Event Horizon' and advance it frame by frame through the hell scenes, now that's how it ought to be for sinners.

Hell, the real hell, is in being alive.

Cheers

K

I wish you hadn't said that - it hit a raw nerve.

Kowalski · Sep 20, 2005

Hi Michel.

Hell is only a word, reality is much much worse.

Cheers

K

lilithu · Sep 20, 2005

Kowalski said:
Do you or anyone else know anybody whose has been in hell, no ! Oh well then, Hell must remain a purely hypothetical notion, totally unproven and without any reality other than the imgination. But if you want to see a place as like as hell maybe, go watch the movie' Event Horizon' and advance it frame by frame through the hell scenes, now that's how it ought to be for sinners.

With all due respect, and as amusing as I think your posts are, I put this thread in the biblical debates section for a reason. If you want to claim that hell does not really exist, which is a perfectly valid position, please back that up with scripture.

Kowalski · Sep 20, 2005

I think you've got your argument in reverse. Scripture proves absolutely nothing, anybody could of written scriptures. The burden of proof for hell lays with the proponent, and so far, I've seen nothing which supports your position or the Bible. Somebody's old verses do not constitute empirical evidence.

Cheers

K

lilithu · Sep 20, 2005

Lady Crimson said:
when i said that i believe in my powers I did not mean that i had super powers or such, but i have been surviving for eons in Hell just believing in myself. (or at least, that's how the story goes )

Victor may not have meant that he thought you were claiming "superpowers." He may simply have meant that from his perspective you were "worshipping" yourself.

I agree; Katzpur's post was great. But I find it hard to believe that no one disagrees with her.

C'mon you guys, is there no one willing to argue in favor of eternal damnation? How 'bout this question: is it possible that Hitler is in heaven right now? because that's what a "temporary" hell implies. that even someone like Hitler has the potential to be saved. that it is never too late.

lilithu · Sep 20, 2005

Kowalski said:
I think you've got your argument in reverse. Scripture proves absolutely nothing, anybody could of written scriptures. The burden of proof for hell lays with the proponent, and so far, I've seen nothing which supports your position or the Bible. Somebody's old verses do not constitute empirical evidence.

Dude, I am not claiming that scripture proves anything for someone who doesn't already accept scripture as authority. I am a UU for gawd's sake!! What I am saying is that this is the biblical debates forum, and I am specifically interested in hearing from people who can make their arguments from that perspective. So please, either play by the rules or step asside. There are plenty of other forums in which to make your arguments.

Kowalski · Sep 20, 2005

Ah, OK, well I won't be doing that. Well, let's hear from the Bible supporters then, the floor is all theirs.

Cheers

K

Aqualung · Sep 20, 2005

lilithu said:
I agree; Katzpur's post was great. But I find it hard to believe that no one disagrees with her. C'mon you guys, is there no one willing to argue in favor of eternal damnation? How 'bout this question: is it possible that Hitler is in heaven right now? because that's what a "temporary" hell implies. that even someone like Hitler has the potential to be saved. that it is never too late.

Katzpur said:
I believe that for the vast majority of God's children, there will be at least some degree of glory following the resurrection

Only for the vast majority will there be some degree of glory. I don't beleive hitler will make it into heaven, since he committed the second worse sin (the first being denying the holy ghost) by murdering, or having murderd, all those innocents.

lilithu · Sep 20, 2005

Aqualung said:
Only for the vast majority will there be some degree of glory. I don't beleive hitler will make it into heaven, since he committed the second worse sin (the first being denying the holy ghost) by murdering, or having murderd, all those innocents.

Just for the sake of argument, what if Hitler got to Hell and there realized that what he did was terribly wrong, truly repented in his heart, and accepted Jesus as his savior. What would there be to prevent him from making it to heaven if hell itself is not necessarily permanent?

And as for those good people who won't accept Christ even in hell and are awared "a portion of God's glory" what if they later decide that they accept afterall? Do they then get "exhaltation"? Or did they miss their chance? What I'm asking is, is there ever a point of no return? Is there ever a point when it's too late to change? If so, when does it happen?

thanks,
-lilith

Katzpur · Sep 20, 2005

lilithu said:
I find it hard to believe that no one disagrees with [Katzpur]. C'mon you guys, is there no one willing to argue in favor of eternal damnation?

I find it hard to believe, too, particularly because I am 100% positive that no other Christian denomination shares the LDS belief in the Spirit World. The closest doctrine to ours is the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, but even it is not the same. In my opinion, however, the LDS and Catholic beliefs do have a common source.

How 'bout this question: is it possible that Hitler is in heaven right now? because that's what a "temporary" hell implies. that even someone like Hitler has the potential to be saved. that it is never too late.

I'm kind of glad you used Hitler as an example. He sort of seems to be everybody's favorite "bad guy." Again, LDS doctrine will probably differ from mainstream Christian doctrine with respect to what Hitler's fate will probably be, but here's our take on the subject:

I think all but a tiny, tiny minority will agree that Hilter was one of the most wicked men who have ever lived. I believe that immediately upon his death, his spirit left his body and faced a sort of "preliminary judgment." Having been found to be wicked and presumably unrepentant, his spirit would have been sent to the Spirit World where, because of how he had lived, he would be imprisoned in a "temorary hell." At some point, someone else in the Spirit World who understood Jesus Christ's Atonement would have presented it to Hitler. He would have had (or may still have) the opportunity to repent of his horrific sins and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (I realize that during his lifetime, he was a "Christian." But that designation, I believe, was in name only. It seems highly unlikely that he was ever truly converted to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.)

If he were to accept Jesus' sacrifice on his behalf, he would be truly remorseful. He would undoubtedly suffer tremendous sorrow over all of the evil he had perpetrated during his lifetime, and would be filled with immeasurable guilt. But, by acknowledging his sins and by coming to a sincere realization of the power of the Atonement, he could have a sincere change of heart and have Christ's grace extended to him.

Regardless of whether he repented and came to believe in Christ as His Savior, I believe it unlikely that he would be condemned to an eternity in Hell. He would still go to Heaven, but would not receive the same degree of God's glory (i.e. the same reward) as would have been possible otherwise. I believe (and it is LDS doctrine) that the only individuals who will be sent to Hell permanently are those who have committed the "unpardonable sin," which is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. One can only commit this sin if one has first had a perfect knowledge of Christ. Most of those who believe in Jesus Christ do so on faith, and do not, therefore, have a knowledge that is so absolute that they are in a position to commit the "unpardonable sin."

Having said all of that, I don't believe that Hitler could possibly be in Heaven right now. I don't believe that any of us will go to either Heaven or to a permanent Hell until Christ returns to earth and the Final Judgment takes place. He could conceivably have been released from the spirit prison by now, though, and be at peace in Paradise, and awaiting his own resurrection.

Kowalski · Sep 20, 2005

Aqualung said:
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Only for the vast majority will there be some degree of glory. I don't believe Hitler will make it into heaven, since he committed the second worse sin (the first being denying the holy ghost) by murdering, or having murderd, all those innocents.

Where is this heaven you all earnestly believe in ? can you point the way, or is it just another figment of Christian imagination? I mean, you talk like it was real, like hell was real, instead of just a human construct. Try saying maybe, or if hell and heaven exist in some wierd place off the earth plane. This discussion, if that's indeed what it is, is about purely hypothectical places, talking about whether Hitler is there or not, what if accepts Christ as Lord, what if what if what if what if....By the way, you forget Jospeh Stalin

Cheers

K

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