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Jesus Did NOT Perform Miraces.

BigRed

Member
The Apostle Peter, claimed that Jesus was "a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst" Acts 2:22

I say that these miracles never happened and I have the proof they never happened right from the Bible.

1) When Jesus was with his Apostles in the garden of Gethsemane, [Mark 14:32-50] when Judas and the men came for Jesus with swords and clubs, the Apostles feared for their lives and they ran away. ""And they all left Him and fled."" [Mark 14:50] Had the Apostles actually witnessed Jesus healing the sick and injured, walking on water, and raising the dead, they would have had nothing to fear. The safest place to be would be with a man who could perform these fabulous miracles. But the Apostles ran for their lives because the miracles in the gospels never happened.

2) Jesus told the people of his generation...."" "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet"" [Matthew 12:39] The sign of Jonah referred to his supposed resurrection. But besides this, Jesus promised no signs to his generation. Aren't miracles signs? So was Jesus lying when he said he would not perform any signs, or miracles? Or as I contend, this is proof that Jesus did not perform any miracles.

3) At Matthew 14:13-21 Jesus is with his Apostles and he feeds 5,000 men, along with many women and children with just 5 loaves of bread and two fish. And the Apostles witnessed, this amazing miracle. In fact they distributed the loaves and fish.
But one chapter later [Matthew 15:32-38] in Matthew's gospel Jesus performs a similar stunt by feeding only 4,000 this time with seven loaves of bread and only a few small fish.
But here is the amazing part.......When Jesus proposes feeding the multitude, the Apostles say to him ""Where would we get so many loaves in this desolate place to satisfy such a large crowd?"" Isn't this a dumb question to ask Jesus when they recently helped Jesus feed 5,000 with a few loaves and fish? They should have known that Jesus could make food out of nothing. I contend that this is evidence that these miracles never happened.

4)We are all familiar with the story of the woman who was bleeding.
""And a woman who had been suffering from a hemorrhage for twelve years, came up behind Him and touched the fringe of His cloak;
for she was saying to herself, "If I only touch His garment, I will get well." [Matthew 9:20-21] The woman says to herself..." "If I only touch His garment, I will get well."" My question is ...How did the author of Matthew's gospel know what the woman was thinking? I contend that this is just more evidence of the fraudulent nature of these supposed miracles.

5) Remember Jairus?
""a synagogue official came and bowed down before Him, and said, "My daughter has just died; but come and lay Your hand on her, and she will live.""
But Jesus tells the crowd ""And entering in, He said to them, "Why make a commotion and weep? The child has not died, but is asleep."" Mark 5:39
So was the child dead or just asleep? Did Jesus perform a miracle or was this just the story of a charlatan's trickery?

6)When Jesus saw that a crowd was rapidly gathering, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "You deaf and mute spirit, I command you, come out of him and do not enter him again." After crying out and throwing him into terrible convulsions, it came out; and the boy became so much like a corpse that most of them said, "He is dead!" Mark 9:25-26
If the spirit was deaf ("You deaf and mute spirit,") how could the spirit hear Jesus' command to come out?
If the spirit was mute, how could the spirit cry out?

7)And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented." Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him." Matthew 8:5-7
In Matthew's gospel, the Centurion comes to see Jesus and talks to Jesus directly. But look how Luke's gospel tells the same story.
Luke 7:2-5
And a centurion's slave, who was highly regarded by him, was sick and about to die. When he heard about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders asking Him to come and save the life of his slave. When they came to Jesus, they earnestly implored Him, saying, "He is worthy for You to grant this to him;
for he loves our nation and it was he who built us our synagogue."
In Luke's gospel, the centurion sends Jewish Elders, and never speaks to Jesus directly.
John's Gospel has another twist to this healing story.
""And there was a royal official whose son was sick at Capernaum. When he heard that Jesus had come out of Judea into Galilee, he went to Him and was imploring Him to come down and heal his son; for he was at the point of death."" John 4:46-47
John's Gospel promotes the sick servant to a son.
These differences point out that the story is fiction and each gospel writer tells the story differently.

8)Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John, and brought them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them. Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah." Mark 9:2-5
Am I nitpicking if I ask how Peter knew it was Moses and Elijah with Jesus? Were they wearing name tags? How could Peter recognize them?
Elijah and Moses died long ago. So where had they been? """No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man"" John 3:13

So what proof do Christians have that Jesus performed miracles? Christians have stories written more than 40 years after the events that they supposedly report?
During the 40 or more years before the Jesus story was written down, the story was told and retold and retold and with each new generation retelling the story the storytellers added fantastic miracles that never happened.
But I have given you proof from the gospels themselves that the miracles are pure fiction.

BigRed
 
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Breathe

Hostis humani generis
So was the child dead or just asleep? Did Jesus perform a miracle or was this just the story of a charlatan's trickery?
I think it was to try and say "The child isn't dead, you just think the child is" with the story going he brought the child back.

If the spirit was deaf ("You deaf and mute spirit,") how could the spirit hear Jesus' command to come out?
If the spirit was mute, how could the spirit cry out?
You're taking them for literal qualities when this could merely have been a way of saying "You ignorant and worthless spirit".

John's Gospel promotes the sick servant to a son.
These differences point out that the story is fiction and each gospel writer tells the story differently.
Not necessarily. From what I have been told, "son" (ben) means different things in Hebrew, and "servant" is one of these. I may be mistaken, though. I'll leave it up to one more knowledgeable in Hebrew and the Torah to comment on this.




However: I'm not Christian. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. :p Whether these happened or not, or even the existence of Jesus, is not important to me since he is not exactly a cornerstone of my faith.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
You have done well in representing the Christian position. No evidence....just assertion.

But thanks for commenting. It is always a pleasure to read your "gems."

BigRed

You presented no more evidence than I did.
 

BigRed

Member
I think it was to try and say "The child isn't dead, you just think the child is" with the story going he brought the child back.


You're taking them for literal qualities when this could merely have been a way of saying "You ignorant and worthless spirit".


Not necessarily. From what I have been told, "son" (ben) means different things in Hebrew, and "servant" is one of these. I may be mistaken, though. I'll leave it up to one more knowledgeable in Hebrew and the Torah to comment on this.




However: I'm not Christian. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. :p Whether these happened or not, or even the existence of Jesus, is not important to me since he is not exactly a cornerstone of my faith.

Thanks for your comments.
I hope you may have inspired some controversy.

BigRed
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
You have done well in representing the Christian position. No evidence....just assertion.

But thanks for commenting. It is always a pleasure to read your "gems."

BigRed

(and this clearly slanted bias has severely clouded your judgment)
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Do you use Willie Nelson's picture because he looks like you? Or is there another connection? Both high?

BigRed

haha

You're trying to force a higher standard of evidence on others than you have for yourself. And your only reason for it is pouting about a Christian viewpoint that (I assume) you wouldn't consider to be true even if it were superior to your bald assertions in the OP.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Do you use Willie Nelson's picture because he looks like you? Or is there another connection? Both high?

BigRed

You have no avatar. Are you faceless?

Both airheads?
 

BigRed

Member
haha

You're trying to force a higher standard of evidence on others than you have for yourself. And your only reason for it is pouting about a Christian viewpoint that (I assume) you wouldn't consider to be true even if it were superior to your bald assertions in the OP.

"bald"??? Who's bald? I have a full head of hair.

But get serious. If you disagree....present your case.

BigRed
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
"bald"??? Who's bald? I have a full head of hair.

But get serious. If you disagree....present your case.

BigRed

Present yours. There's nothing to argue yet. :shrug:

The best defence to your OP I have already given.

You said that Jesus didn't perform miracles, providing no evidence at all.

I said that he did, providing no evidence but with less words.

If you can substantiate your claims, that would be another matter altogether.
 

BigRed

Member
The Mother of Reasons why Jesus' Miracles are Bogus

Throughout the Gospels Jesus goes around casting out Demons.
Do Demons exist?
I am confident that demons are imaginary creatures.
Is it a miracle to cast out an imaginary creature?

If the casting out of imaginary creatures demonstrates the validity of Jesus' miracle power, then it casts serious doubt on all the rest of his supposed miracles.

My Christian friends......if you want to believe in Jesus' miracles, I fear that you will have to argue that Demons actually exist.
BigRed
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
The Mother of Reasons why Jesus' Miracles are Bogus

Throughout the Gospels Jesus goes around casting out Demons.
Do Demons exist?
I am confident that demons are imaginary creatures.
Is it a miracle to cast out an imaginary creature?

If the casting out of imaginary creatures demonstrates the validity of Jesus' miracle power, then it casts serious doubt on all the rest of his supposed miracles.

My Christian friends......if you want to believe in Jesus' miracles, I fear that you will have to argue that Demons actually exist.
BigRed

:biglaugh:
 
To address each "miracle" addressed in the OP:

1.)
It's not recorded that Jesus did anything to stop a person's pain before it happened. The disciples being scared of the pain that could be inflicted by the soldiers seems legit, even if they knew Jesus could heal them, and raise them from the dead afterwards. Further to that, as shown post resurrection, the disciples' faith wasn't perfect, and they were in a bit of a state about what Jesus had predicted to them about His own death etc.

2.)
Miracles don't prove that He is the Messiah. Moses and Elijah and Elisha all performed miracles (or God performed miracles through them,) yet none of these men were the Messiah. Looking at the OT, the Egyptian sorcerers performed what could be called "miracles," (whether God gave them the power to do that or the power to do that came from somewhere else is another question) but none of these men were the Messiah either. Just because a person can perform miracles doesn't make him the Messiah. Gifts are no evidence of holiness.

3.)
The disciples aren't perfect, their faith was developing, they forgot. Read Mark 8 to get Jesus' perspective on this.

4.)
God knew what the woman was thinking, and God said to Matthew, "sit down, grab a bit of whatever material people write on these days, and write this...." Or, perhaps the woman caught up with them later and told Matthew what she was thinking at the time. Perhaps both are true.

5.)
The girl may have been dead, but perhaps the faith the man showed by seeking out Jesus was enough to bring the girl back to life. When he actually asked Jesus, by that time she'd stopped being dead, so Jesus said, "she's not dead." The time she spent being dead was so short that it was more like a short sleep.

6.)
It's possible that the spirit itself was not deaf and mute, it made the person it was tormenting deaf and mute. It's also possible that the Spirit was normally deaf, but Jesus' communicated with it in some supernatural way that bypassed the spirit's deafness. If someone is dumb, it just means they can't talk, but they can still make noise (cry out.)

7.)
It's easy to reconcile these differences. Jesus went to Capernaum, the centurion heard about it and sent some Jewish elders to talk to Jesus on his behalf. Jesus went to the centurion’s house, the centurion came out to meet Him and they had the conversation found in Matthew 8. The four gospels were written to four different audiences, each emphasising different things.
Matthew calls the boy a servant, Luke calls the boy a slave who was dear to the centurion, John calls the boy the nobleman's son.
In Matthew and Luke the man is a centurion, but in John he’s a nobleman. It's possible that these are 2 separate miracles. If they are all references to the one instance though, then all descriptions of the boy can be accurate, because a slave who is close to the master can be considered the master's son. The Greek word used in John can mean a figurative son; it doesn't have to be a biological son.
As Odion pointed out, "ben" in Hebrew can mean son or servant, depending on context, but the NT is written (mostly) in Greek.

8.)
They represented the law and the prophets. It makes sense for them to be there. Perhaps they were wearing nametags, or perhaps Peter got some divine revelation, like he did in Matthew 16. Elijah (and Enoch for that matter) were translated (or "taken up," to be slightly more literal,) Jesus ascended; there's a big difference. There were interesting things surrounding what happened to Moses' body afterwards his death too.
I'd suggest that next time you have a question about the Bible, you read the Bible to try to find the answer. I think that if you had read the Bible, especially 2 Kings, Jude and Matthew 16, you'd have the answers to these questions about Moses and Elijah.

BigRed said:
So what proof do Christians have that Jesus performed miracles?
Only, what the Bible says. Still, what proof do non-Christians have that Jesus didn't perform miracles?

BigRed said:
But I have given you proof from the gospels themselves that the miracles are pure fiction.
No, what you've done is provided your interpretation of some parts of the Bible that has led you to the conclusion that these miracles are pure fiction.
A Christian who believes the Bible could give his own interpretation of these scriptures and call it proof that these miracles are pure fact.

BigRed said:
if you want to believe in Jesus' miracles, I fear that you will have to argue that Demons actually exist.
Don't worry, your fears are unfounded. It doesn't have to be argued nor proven; it just has to be believed. The Bible says Jesus did miracles, so I believe it. The Bible says demons exist, so I believe that too.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
The miracles need not have literally happened for them to have a deep spiritual meaning. Jesus taught everything in allegories and the gospel authors probably did the same. Literalism and rigidness did not exist in the earliest church.
 

BigRed

Member
Wishful thinking often leads to a miracle.
I witnessed the proclaiming of a miracle.

Several years ago, I attended a Bible Study at the home of one of the brothers of my church. It was late afternoon, and we were sitting in a circle in the living room. From my seat, I could see down a hallway from off the living room where there were bedroom doors in this hallway.

As the sun was going down I noticed that the sun was shinning from a bedroom window on to the wall in the hallway. As a truck or large vehicle rode by the house it would block the sun and the shadow would move across the wall of the hallway.

As I was watching a shadow move down the hallway, the woman sitting next to me jumped up and screamed, “”I just saw an Angel in the hallway””
Another woman jumped up “” I saw it also””

Everyone at the Bible Study jumped up and crowded into the hallway searching for the Angel.

By the time everyone was back in their seats, the sun was down, and it would have been useless to try and explain what had happened. They were all convinced that an Angel had visited our Bible Study.

By Sunday Service, it was official, the Pastor announced “”An Angel has visited our Bible Study. Praise God!””

BigRed
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Wishful thinking often leads to a miracle.
I witnessed the proclaiming of a miracle.

Several years ago, I attended a Bible Study at the home of one of the brothers of my church. It was late afternoon, and we were sitting in a circle in the living room. From my seat, I could see down a hallway from off the living room where there were bedroom doors in this hallway.

As the sun was going down I noticed that the sun was shinning from a bedroom window on to the wall in the hallway. As a truck or large vehicle rode by the house it would block the sun and the shadow would move across the wall of the hallway.

As I was watching a shadow move down the hallway, the woman sitting next to me jumped up and screamed, “”I just saw an Angel in the hallway””
Another woman jumped up “” I saw it also””

Everyone at the Bible Study jumped up and crowded into the hallway searching for the Angel.

By the time everyone was back in their seats, the sun was down, and it would have been useless to try and explain what had happened. They were all convinced that an Angel had visited our Bible Study.

By Sunday Service, it was official, the Pastor announced “”An Angel has visited our Bible Study. Praise God!””

BigRed

sounds like proof to me jesus was a normal man :angel2:
 
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