Let There Be Light and There Was Light

Etritonakin said:

No. I am not implying that God dictated Genesis over the shoulder of a scribe.

Click to expand...

Zardoz said:

Sorry, my misunderstanding since you ended with "So, I repeat... Christians."

Click to expand...

Thief said:

So then your quoting of scripture is no more 'factual' than my discussion?

Click to expand...

Etritonakin said:

Assume what I meant by what I said and conclude whatever you will. I'm not interested in discussing it further with you.

Click to expand...

ellenjanuary said:

... But I don't even know if I can remain "OT Christian" after last week's fiasco, so I'm not too happy with Christianity in general right now...

Click to expand...

Thief said:

The previous posts are running in different directions and at the same time...using similar terms.
This could become a wash of terms and all meanings could be lost.

The initial quote...the thread title is of course biblical.
But the focus and mindful thought will not be supported by scripture.

When considering the creation of light...God's first creation....
it will not do well to let your thoughts wander from that action.

The Garden....and Man....were not present.
The form of the earth is mentioned...in the beginning....but not yet formed.

I say....let's back up a few postings and consider.....
The Void.

Click to expand...

Ben Masada said:

The "void" is only another term to describe the Cosmos where the universe was set in when God created it or it developed as to become the universe that it has become today; and still expands, as God has never stopped creating.

Click to expand...

Etritonakin said:

As for that particular light... Christ was able to instantaneously heal and wither trees while on earth (not that miracles are unscientific), and, as we know from John 1, was the being which actually did the creating of all things as directed by the Father -so he could have simply caused some light to work by -because it was dark. However, our sun may actually have already been there in some state (I'll get to how later) -and he merely flipped the switch, as it were -to turn it on. He stoked the fire, so to speak. In verse 4, God divided the light from that light from the darkness -resulting in day and night on earth. What would that require? Spinning the earth in relation to the sun. The rest of the making of lights for signs, seasons, years, etc... refers to placement of celestial bodies in relation to each other. Saying he made the greater light (sun) in a later verse is a reiteration, not a statement of sequence as it refers to the sun itself -but as it refers to the other lights and their placement in relation to the sun, earth and each other.


...and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

(Note: the spirit of God in the above is not WHO did the creating, but HOW the Word did the creating. The above does not contradict John 1)

Many misunderstand Genesis to say that the earth was initially created about six thousand years ago, but this is not the case -and some background may clarify this issue for you.

The bible actually places Lucifer on earth -in Eden -before he sinned -yet he had already led an unsuccessful coup against God's throne and was called the devil by the time he interacted with Eve.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Now consider....

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

A simple statement. Some believe the next words to mean that the earth wasn't finished and essentially needed some sprucing up...

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void;

...but the word translated "was" is...

H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary)....

So -if we read it as..
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth HAD BECOME without form, and void;
...which is perfectly acceptable, it means something much different!

It is not specified when the initial completion of the creation of the earth took place -nor is an amount of time specified between its completion and its eventual ruin.

How did it travel to be ruined before Adam and Eve were created?
We read in Job that the angels shouted for joy at its creation...
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding...........
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
So what happened between this joy-causing creation and Adam and Eve?

WAR! SIN! SATAN'S COUP!

When men war, the earth gets pretty messed up -what happens when angels war (Satan led a third of the angels -for which he was responsible -to sin)? What happens when they get back from a war they lost and are frustrated?

So -the war is over, the demons are restrained -and the Word, who eventually becomes Christ begins to REcreate what is left of the earth. The universe was already created, so there were some lights/stars/suns knocking about, but not in the present arrangement. The deep/waters were already there -and he had to separate water from dry land, etc.. etc...
He then eventually renewed Eden -and created Adam about 6,000 years ago -according to the genealogies given in the bible. I've skimmed over this last bit, but that's for another post.

This allows for all that we see in the fossil record, and for all sorts of life forms on earth -even humanoids and civilization -before Adam. Adam was the first man by biblical definition -made in the image and likeness of God and having the potential to live forever -not by scientific definition.

Luk 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

Click to expand...

Etritonakin said:

YET...
"The form of the earth is mentioned...in the beginning....but not yet formed." is an assumption based on what you believe it says -not what it actually says -and especially not based on what the words allow.

Please read my post thoroughly again -I edited it -and have given adequate scriptural support -and can provide more. We need to disregard our preconceptions and read what it says.

Also -the first thing God created was not the light -but the heaven and earth!

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

BUT Before he created earth... created angels!
Are we to believe this is not possible because it is not specified in the very general statement of Genesis 1?

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. ........
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The sons of God here are angels...

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

The first thing he created was....

H8064
שׁמה שׁמים
shâmayim shâmeh
shaw-mah'-yim, shaw-meh'
The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).

Perhaps you might say that this means only the blackness of space, and nothing in it, but this does not stand to reason, scripture, science or anything else. If you are trying to say that the bible states that God created the void of space first, then put the earth within it next, then all other celestial bodies afterward -that is illogical -and an assumption -and is not specifically stated. The first reference to a time frame and sequence is the first evening and morning. The fact that the seasons and years were delineated on a specific day says nothing specific about the initial creation of any clestial body -but does specifically relate to their relative positions.

Click to expand...

Etritonakin said:

I respect your opinions and perceptions -and disagree that they are factual.

Click to expand...

Zardoz said:

Yes, Ben, but you see his response. Twice I brought up Matthew 7:28 to allright before you did and he's refused to reply three times now. We both know why he's so keen on seeing Yeshua as only teaching the disciples and not the Jewish People as a whole, don't we?

Click to expand...

ellenjanuary said:

Nice. Long figured the serpent to be science. Not evil, just not-god. God and not-god, rather than good and evil; as the second depends upon cultural perspective, while the first discusses what can be given (god) and what must be learned (science). I mean, if god gave us science directly, we'd be building phasers; we'd be zapping each other, game over.

Click to expand...

Thief said:

The OT makes notation that all was created and no more will be created.

Apparently you have a different scripture?

Click to expand...

Zardoz said:

So you agree with allright here:


That Yeshua was not speaking to the Jewish People? Please try to keep in mind that there are no Christians there, only Jews.

Click to expand...

Ben Masada said:

This is more of the same anthropomorphic god, which Nietzche declared to have died. A god that can be persuaded by something that does not exist as a being is simply ridiculous to be interpreted literally. Satan does not exist and never existed. It is but a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. As a being, Satan was fabricated by religious crooks in order to make a living out of the naives ones of this world.

Click to expand...

Thief said:

The OT makes notation that all was created and no more will be created.

Apparently you have a different scripture?

Click to expand...

Ben Masada said:

Science has proved that the universe expands. It has got to be God at His work of creation. BTW, once Einstein was asked if he believed in God. He answered and said that all his life was to try to catch God at His work of creation. Then, he went out to deliver a lecture on the expansion of the universe. Of course, his answer could be taken in a dubious manner, I thought for a while. But latter I understood that in his answer, he was not referring to the anthropomorphic god of religions.

Click to expand...

Etritonakin said:

Where? (just curious)

Click to expand...