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Adam, Eve and T. Rex [LATimes]

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
COLUMN ONE
Adam, Eve and T. Rex

<LI style="LIST-STYLE-POSITION: inside; LIST-STYLE-TYPE: square">Giant roadside dinosaur attractions are used by a new breed of creationists as pulpits to spread their version of Earth's origins.
By Ashley Powers, Times Staff Writer
CABAZON, Calif. — Dinny the roadside dinosaur has found religion.

The 45-foot-high concrete apatosaurus has towered over Interstate 10 near Palm Springs for nearly three decades as a kitschy prehistoric pit stop for tourists.

Now he is the star of a renovated attraction that disputes the fact that dinosaurs died off millions of years before humans first walked the planet.

Dinny's new owners, pointing to the Book of Genesis, contend that most dinosaurs arrived on Earth the same day as Adam and Eve, some 6,000 years ago, and later marched two by two onto Noah's Ark. The gift shop at the attraction, called the Cabazon Dinosaurs, sells toy dinosaurs whose labels warn, "Don't swallow it! The fossil record does not support evolution."

The Cabazon Dinosaurs join at least half a dozen other roadside attractions nationwide that use the giant reptiles' popularity in seeking to win converts to creationism. And more are on the way.

"We're putting evolutionists on notice: We're taking the dinosaurs back," said Ken Ham, president of Answers in Genesis, a Christian group building a $25-million creationist museum in Petersburg, Ky., that's already overrun with model sauropods and velociraptors.

"They're used to teach people that there's no God, and they're used to brainwash people," he said. "Evolutionists get very upset when we use dinosaurs. That's their star."

The nation's top paleontologists find the creation theory preposterous and say children are being misled by dinosaur exhibits that take the Jurassic out of "Jurassic Park."

"Dinosaurs lived in the Garden of Eden, and Noah's Ark? Give me a break," said Kevin Padian, curator at the University of California Museum of Paleontology in Berkeley and president of National Center for Science Education, an Oakland group that supports teaching evolution. "For them, 'The Flintstones' is a documentary."

Tyrannosaurus rex and his gigantic brethren find themselves on both sides of the nation's renewed debate over the Earth's origins and the continuing fight over whether Charles Darwin's "The Origin of Species" or Genesis best explains the development of life.

Science holds that dinosaurs were the Earth's royalty for about 160 million years. Their reign ended abruptly, possibly after a meteorite smacked into the planet, but they're considered the forebears of birds.

Unearthing dinosaur bones that are millions of years old "doesn't prove evolution, but it shows the Genesis account doesn't work," said Nick Matzke, a spokesman for the National Center for Science Education.

Drivers who pull off Interstate 10 in Pensacola, Fla., are told a far different story at Dinosaur Adventure Land. Its slogan: "Where Dinosaurs and the Bible meet!"

The nearly 7-acre museum, low-tech theme park and science center embodies its founder's belief that God created the world in six days. The dinosaurs, even super carnivores such as T. rex, dined as vegetarians in the Garden of Eden until Adam and Eve sinned — and only then did they feast on other creatures, according to the Christian-based young-Earth theory.

About 4,500 years after Adam and Eve arrived, the theory goes, pairs of baby dinosaurs huddled in Noah's Ark, and a colossal flood drowned the rest and scattered their fossils. The ark-borne animals repopulated the planet — meaning that folk tales about fire-breathing beasts are accounts of humans battling dinosaurs, who still roamed the planet.

Kids romping through the $1.5-million Florida theme park can bounce on a "Long Neck Liftasaurus" swing seat; launch water balloons at a T. rex and a stegosaurus, and smooth their own sandbox-size Grand Canyons, whose formation is credited to the flood. A "fossilized" pickle purports to show that dinosaur bones could have hardened quickly. Got an upcoming birthday? Dinosaur Adventure Land does pizza parties.

"Go to Disneyland, they teach evolution. It's subtle; signs that say, 'Millions of years ago' " said evangelist Kent Hovind, the park's founder. "This is a golden opportunity to get our point across."

Carl Baugh opened his Creation Evidence Museum in the 1980s near Dinosaur Valley State Park in Glen Rose, Texas, where some people said fossilized dinosaur tracks and human footprints crisscrossed contemporaneously. The Texas museum sponsors a continuing hunt for living pterodactyls in Papua New Guinea. Baugh said five colleagues have spotted the flying dinosaurs, "but all the sightings were made after dark, and we were not able to capture the creatures."

Organizers at Creation Research of the North Coast in Humboldt County, Calif., dream of building their own reptile park but lack funding and acreage. So do leaders at Project Creation in Mount Juliet, Tenn., who would need to raise about $1 million to assemble 30 to 50 pterodactyl and brachiosaur replicas to mingle with live chickens and goats.

At the Institute for Creation Research museum in Santee, a San Diego suburb, officials plan to enlarge its paleontological offerings.

"We like to think of [dinosaurs] as creation lizards, or missionary lizards," said Frank Sherwin, a museum researcher and author.

A 50,000-square-foot Answers in Genesis museum and headquarters is under construction near the Ohio-Kentucky border, where the group hired a full-time dinosaur sculptor. When the facility opens in 2007, the lobby will spotlight a 20-foot waterfall and two animatronic T. rexes hanging out with two animatronic children dressed in buckskins.

The creation museums are riling mainstream Christian denominations that believe the Earth is billions of years old and that God uses evolution as a tool. This conviction makes modern science compatible with their faith in a creator.

"Taking the Bible as astronomy or physics is blasphemy. They're treating it as an elementary textbook and it's not," said Francisco J. Ayala, a UC Irvine evolutionary biology professor and ordained Dominican priest.

"We believe that God created the world…. They misread, misquote and misuse the Bible, but they will lose out to science," said Ayala, a past president of the American Assn. for the Advancement of Science.

Hugh Ross, an astrophysicist and founder of Reasons To Believe ministry in Pasadena, frets that "young-Earth theologians" damage the credibility of scientists who are Christian and push intellectuals away from religion.

"I'd put them in the same category as flat-Earth people and the people that think the sun goes around the Earth," he said. "They think they're defending the truth, but the young-Earth model has no scientific integrity."

Advocates of the intelligent design idea, who assert that certain features of life are best explained by a creative intelligence, bristle at being lumped in with young-Earth creationists. There's little question that the Earth is billions of years old, said John West, senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, a public policy think tank in Seattle that is critical of Darwinian theory.

"Critics would rather tar everyone with the brush of creationism," said West, who teaches political science at Seattle Pacific University. "I think the idea that Genesis provides scientific text is really farfetched."


balance of article at: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-dinosaurs27aug27,0,3988775,full.story?coll=la-home-local
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
The Cabazon Dinosaurs join at least half a dozen other roadside attractions nationwide that use the giant reptiles' popularity in seeking to win converts to creationism.
Most dinosaurs are not reptiles (excpetions include mostly flying reptiles (like pteridons) and aquatic reptiles (like icktheosaurus)).
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
This part made me laugh out loud. Stuff like this makes people who believe in creation look like morons.*

About 4,500 years after Adam and Eve arrived, the theory goes, pairs of baby dinosaurs huddled in Noah's Ark, and a colossal flood drowned the rest and scattered their fossils. The ark-borne animals repopulated the planet — meaning that folk tales about fire-breathing beasts are accounts of humans battling dinosaurs, who still roamed the planet.
*Before anyone gets offended - I believe in the creation, but I don't believe that Noah had baby dinosaurs on his ark. :)
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I wonder how Noah would have gotten enough food to feed the baby dinosaurs? And what about when they carnivorous ones grew older and went on a rampage and would have eaten anything in site? And Noah's ark would have been far too small for even half grown dinosaurs to fit in with everything else.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Actually JerryL ... No dinosaur was a 'reptile' in the strict sence. Pterosaurs were not dinosaurs and were warm blooded furry things decidedly un reptilian... Icthyosuars were reptiles and thier metabolism is as yet still debated.

There is also the evidence that most dinosaurs grew terrifically fast... from one pound hatchlings to three ton adults in five years in the case of most Hadrosaurs(duck-bills). Basket ball sized hatchlings to thirty ton ninty foot long adults in twenty years or so for Sauropods like Apatasaurus.

How do you keep something like that on a little boat for a year or more?

wa:do
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Luke Wolf said:
I wonder how Noah would have gotten enough food to feed the baby dinosaurs? And what about when they carnivorous ones grew older and went on a rampage and would have eaten anything in site? And Noah's ark would have been far too small for even half grown dinosaurs to fit in with everything else.
Remember Mat 15:32 - 15:39?
NIV: 32Jesus called his disciples to him and said, "I have compassion for these people; they have already been with me three days and have nothing to eat. I do not want to send them away hungry, or they may collapse on the way." 33His disciples answered, "Where could we get enough bread in this remote place to feed such a crowd?" 34"How many loaves do you have?" Jesus asked. "Seven," they replied, "and a few small fish." 35He told the crowd to sit down on the ground. 36Then he took the seven loaves and the fish, and when he had given thanks, he broke them and gave them to the disciples, and they in turn to the people. 37They all ate and were satisfied. Afterward the disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. 38The number of those who ate was four thousand, besides women and children. 39After Jesus had sent the crowd away, he got into the boat and went to the vicinity of Magadan.


God must have blessed or empowered Noah with the same miraculous way that Jesus used to feed four thousand with 7 loaves and a few small fish.

If you study the bible hard, and think "scientifically", you can come up with a good answer.:D
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
If you study the bible hard, and think "scientifically", you can come up with a good answer.
But there is still the issue of space. A cubit is only roughly the lenght of the human forearm to the tip of the fingers, maybe two feet at the most. That ark would have been big, but not nearly large enough to fit two of all the large dinosaurs in it. I'm not very knowlegable with dinosaur names, but the big ones like T-Rex, and then the ones with long necks, and the ones with three horns on thier heads, and the other many big ones. It would get a bit cramped. And not to mention the other big animals, such as elephants and rhinos. And lions and tigers arent exactly small either.
I do wonder, would all the animals have been put into a deep sleep? How could one manager to sleep with all the animals making noise, especially if there was a T-rex, and it roared like they do on Jurassic Park.
It kinda reminds me of Bill Cosby's Noah jokes. The one part "And Noah had to keep reminding the rabbits 'Only two, only two!'"
 

Ryan2065

Well-Known Member
Luke Wolf said:
But there is still the issue of space. A cubit is only roughly the lenght of the human forearm to the tip of the fingers, maybe two feet at the most. That ark would have been big, but not nearly large enough to fit two of all the large dinosaurs in it. I'm not very knowlegable with dinosaur names, but the big ones like T-Rex, and then the ones with long necks, and the ones with three horns on thier heads, and the other many big ones. It would get a bit cramped. And not to mention the other big animals, such as elephants and rhinos. And lions and tigers arent exactly small either.
I do wonder, would all the animals have been put into a deep sleep? How could one manager to sleep with all the animals making noise, especially if there was a T-rex, and it roared like they do on Jurassic Park.
It kinda reminds me of Bill Cosby's Noah jokes. The one part "And Noah had to keep reminding the rabbits 'Only two, only two!'"
But according to the bible animals were differnet back then! I am pretty darn sure that at that time all animals only ate plants, not each other =) Well, according to the bible.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Actually JerryL ... No dinosaur was a 'reptile' in the strict sence.
I don't believe I agree... though we would have to start with a clear definition of "dinosaur" here. I'm also unaware of anything that woudl deny the great aquatic reptiles (Dinocephalosaurus orientalis, plesiosaurs, mosasaurs), or flying reptiles (pteranodons, pterodactyls, etc) were anything other than reptiles. I'd love to see your references there.
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Luke Wolf said:
But there is still the issue of space. A cubit is only roughly the lenght of the human forearm to the tip of the fingers, maybe two feet at the most. That ark would have been big, but not nearly large enough to fit two of all the large dinosaurs in it. I'm not very knowlegable with dinosaur names, but the big ones like T-Rex, and then the ones with long necks, and the ones with three horns on thier heads, and the other many big ones. It would get a bit cramped. And not to mention the other big animals, such as elephants and rhinos. And lions and tigers arent exactly small either.
I do wonder, would all the animals have been put into a deep sleep? How could one manager to sleep with all the animals making noise, especially if there was a T-rex, and it roared like they do on Jurassic Park.
It kinda reminds me of Bill Cosby's Noah jokes. The one part "And Noah had to keep reminding the rabbits 'Only two, only two!'"
I suspect Moses did not write in details, but Noah could have collected pairs of dinosaur's egg, or just the babies. There is a possibility that the Noah arc may be equipped with cold room, there all the animals just went in there and hibernated for the entire trip.:jiggy:
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I suspect Moses did not write in details, but Noah could have collected pairs of dinosaur's egg, or just the babies. There is a possibility that the Noah arc may be equipped with cold room, there all the animals just went in there and hibernated for the entire trip.
But the eggs would have hatched.
I do think if the Noah's Flood story did happen, God would have done something and would have made the animals hibernate while on the ark. That is just to many animals for one small family to handle. Take care of the last ones on the list, then it's already time to start at the begining again.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
I do think if the Noah's Flood story did happen, God would have done something and would have made the animals hibernate while on the ark. That is just to many animals for one small family to handle. Take care of the last ones on the list, then it's already time to start at the begining again.
I think God would have just moved the animals he wanted to save forward in timespace.

No, I think a God would have forgone the flood and simply de-existed the people he didn't like.

No, I think an all-powerful God would have made creation that didn't go in a way he regretted in the first place.

In fact, though the original Sumerian story makes sense to the gods in that religion, Noah's story seems really illogical with teh Christian perspective of God.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
JerryL said:
In fact, though the original Sumerian story makes sense to the gods in that religion, Noah's story seems really illogical with teh Christian perspective of God.
Let's assume the Flood did not occur. Here's what we would be facing today:

  1. The Earth would be one big tropical paradise - climatically speaking - BUT
  • Giants would be roaming around searching for people to molest
  • Dinosaurs would be roaming around searching for people to eat
  • No rain
And this is just to name a few. Sin had gotten so out of hand that God had to intervene and do something.
 

Ori

Angel slayer
AV1611 said:
Let's assume the Flood did not occur. Here's what we would be facing today:

  1. The Earth would be one big tropical paradise - climatically speaking - BUT
  • Giants would be roaming around searching for people to molest
  • Dinosaurs would be roaming around searching for people to eat
  • No rain
And this is just to name a few. Sin had gotten so out of hand that God had to intervene and do something.
Hi AV

There have been many accounts of a massive flood from many cultures, but I do not believe in the flood situation as described in the Bible.
If there were really giants who lived among us at the time, why haven't their bones been excavated ?

Cheers
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Let's assume the Flood did not occur. Here's what we would be facing today:

  1. The Earth would be one big tropical paradise - climatically speaking - BUT
  • Giants would be roaming around searching for people to molest
  • Dinosaurs would be roaming around searching for people to eat
  • No rain
And this is just to name a few. Sin had gotten so out of hand that God had to intervene and do something.
Cause God couldn't just "make things different", he had to have this ark made and bring all these animals bodily into it, and make rain and such. Couldn't just say "no more dinosaurs"?

I thought your god was tougher than that.
 

cmotdibbler

Member
AV1611 said:
Let's assume the Flood did not occur. Here's what we would be facing today:



  1. The Earth would be one big tropical paradise - climatically speaking - BUT
  • Giants would be roaming around searching for people to molest
  • Dinosaurs would be roaming around searching for people to eat
  • No rain
And this is just to name a few. Sin had gotten so out of hand that God had to intervene and do something.
You're joking, right? :biglaugh:



Good thing that the issue of "sin" has been resolved or is the recent hurricane in New Orleans another instance of god's "intervention"?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
cmotdibbler said:
You're joking, right? :biglaugh:
AND IT CAME TO PASS, WHEN MEN BEGAN TO MULTIPLY ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH, AND DAUGHTERS WERE BORN UNTO THEM, THAT THE SONS OF GOD SAW THE DAUGHTERS OF MEN THAT THEY WERE FAIR; AND THEY TOOK THEM WIVES OF ALL WHICH THEY CHOSE.
... THERE WERE GIANTS IN THE EARTH IN THOSE DAYS --- (Genesis 6:1-2,4)

Does that sound funny to you?

Good thing that the issue of "sin" has been resolved or is the recent hurricane in New Orleans another instance of god's "intervention"?
The issue of "sin" has not quite been resolved yet, I just now posted the 4 reasons why the Tribulation is going to take place according to Daniel 9:24.

As for the hurricane in New Orleans, I'll abstain from commenting.
 

Ori

Angel slayer
AV1611 said:
As for the hurricane in New Orleans, I'll abstain from commenting.

Why ? Is your view too contreversial ?

I would like to hear what you have to say, but if you really don't want to post it then I respect your decision.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
orichalcum said:
Why ? Is your view too contreversial ?

I would like to hear what you have to say, but if you really don't want to post it then I respect your decision.
Let's just say people hate God enough as it is. I'm not gonna put another log on the fire.
 
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