The Holy Spirit

The personality of the Holy Spirit is evidenced in numerous NT Scriptures.

Luke 12:12 For the Holy Spirit with teac you in that very Hour what you ought to say..[ He teaches ]

John 15:26 When the helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father that is the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about me..[ He Testifies ] Notice also he is reffered to as He..and not a force as May is saying..
Acts 5:3 But Peter said " Annanias" why has satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land. [ He can be lied to]. Also futher down in Acts we can see He can be tested Acts 5:9

ACTS 13:2-4 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting,The Holy Spirit said Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul to the work which I have called them [ He speaks ] 3, Then when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them they sent them away. 4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit they went down to Seleucia and from there they sailed to Cyprus..[ He sends people out ]

1Cor 12:11 But One and the Same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually Just as He wills..[ He has distributes]

Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption..[ He can be grieved ]

Hebrews 3:7 Therefore. just as the Holy Spirit says, today if you hear his voice. [ Again we can see He speaks ]

His Diety is demostrated by His divine attributes as revealed in Scripture.
Convicts the lost of sin and he indwells believers at conversion and empowers them to lead the Christain life.

Mathew 12:31-32 Therefore I say to you, Any sin and blastphemy shall be forgiven people but blastphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven 12 whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to Come.

Mark 3:29 But he that blastphems against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness..

Romans 8:4 So that the requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the Flesh but according to the Spirit. verses 26-27 In the same way the Spirit helps our weakness for we do not know how to pray as we should but the Spirit Himself interceeds for us with Groanings too deep for words. 27 He who searches the hearts, knows what the mind of the Spirit is because he interceeds for the saints according to the will of God.

Eph 2:18 -19 For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit tp the Father 19 So then you are no longer starngers and Aliens but you are fellow citizens with the saints and are of Gods House hold..

Eph 5 14:20 For This reason it says awake sleeper and arise from the dead and Christ will shine on you. 15- Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise 16- making the most of your time because the days are evil 17- so then do not be foolish but understand what the will of the Lord is 18- and do not get drunk with wine for that is dissipation but be filled with the Spirit. 19- Speaking in Psalms and hymns and Spiritual songs making melody with your heart to the Lord 20- always giving thanks to the Lord.20- Always giving Thanks for all things in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ even the Father. In these verses alone we can see.

1 The FATHER
2 The SON
3 The HOLY SPIRIT.

AHHHHHHHH Divine......

Thanks Terry, May, Scott, and Glasgowchick for your responses!

Scott, I was wondering if you can answer a question that came up previously about the Holy Spirit:
"He proceeds, not by way of generation, but by way of spiration, from the Father and the Son together, as from a single principle."

What does it mean to procede by generation? Or by spiration?

Oh, and I have to say this: having looked carefully at the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as described in scripture, it seems to me that the Eastern Orthodox got it right. The Spirit from the Father through the Son, not the Spirit from the Father and the Son. Tho, of course, both the Eastern and Roman churches have always claimed knowedge beyond scripture.

lilithu said:

Scott, I was wondering if you can answer a question that came up previously about the Holy Spirit:
"He proceeds, not by way of generation, but by way of spiration, from the Father and the Son together, as from a single principle."

What does it mean to procede by generation? Or by spiration?

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Well, to be sure, this conversation is not simple stuff.... thanks Lilithu for giving me the opportunity to chat about this.... not many people care about this type of thing.

Ok on to your question:
Generation and Spiration are terms used to attempt to define the relationship of the Trinity in regard to origin.... Jesus by generation from the Father, and the Holy Spirit by spiration from the Father (and the Son in the Roman Church... but to be clear, we view both as equally valid). Saint Athanasius states that "the Holy Ghost comes from the Father and from the Son not made not created, not generated, but proceeding ". As we are utterly incapable of otherwise fixing the meaning of the mysterious mode affecting this relation of origin, we apply to it the name spiration, the signification of which is principally negative and by way of contrast, in the sense that it affirms a Procession peculiar to the Holy Ghost and exclusive of filiation. But though we distinguish absolutely and essentially between generation and spiration, it is a very delicate and difficult task to say what the difference is.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm

Oh, and I have to say this: having looked carefully at the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as described in scripture, it seems to me that the Eastern Orthodox got it right. The Spirit from the Father through the Son, not the Spirit from the Father and the Son. Tho, of course, both the Eastern and Roman churches have always claimed knowedge beyond scripture.

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It's not a knowledge beyond Scripture per se.... but I know what you mean.

Maybe this quote will help explain the Roman Catholic doctrine:
At the outset the Eastern tradition expresses the Father's character as first origin of the Spirit. By confessing the Spirit as he "who proceeds from the Father", it affirms that he comes from the Father through the Son. The Western tradition expresses first the consubstantial communion between Father and Son, by saying that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque). It says this, "legitimately and with good reason", for the eternal order of the divine persons in their consubstantial communion implies that the Father, as "the principle without principle", is the first origin of the Spirit, but also that as Father of the only Son, he is, with the Son, the single principle from which the Holy Spirit proceeds. This legitimate complementarity, provided it does not become rigid, does not affect the identity of faith in the reality of the same mystery confessed.

lilithu said:

Namaste ES

I agree that that Holy Spirit has been at work the whole time, from when the Spirit first moved across the waters in Genesis 1:1. And I agree that the Holy Spirit would be the Spirit of Truth the whole time. The way that I reconcile the apparent discrepancy is in revelation. Something could be working the entire time and if we don't recognize it, then we don't know it's there. However, when someone points it out to us so that we can see it, then we start to see it even in the places where we didn't see it before. Does that make sense? It was there the whole time but we didn't recognize it until it was revealed to us. Sooo... the Holy Spirit has been at work the whole time, but we couldn't recognize it until Jesus revealed it to us. And so from our perspective, Jesus is sending the Spirit to us. From the Christian perspective, the power of the Spirit is made accessible to us thru Christ.

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This does make sense. It is like an elementarty school teacher. They know how to do algebra and calculous, but would not teach this to their younger students. They will instead, teach them the building blocks, then when they are ready for the more advanced mathmatics, it is revealed to them. The teacher(source of knowledge) was always there, and the teacher also always knew the higher 'truth'.

Thank you, Lilith. Frubals to you.

lilithu said:

Scott, I was wondering if you can answer a question that came up previously about the Holy Spirit:
"He proceeds, not by way of generation, but by way of spiration, from the Father and the Son together, as from a single principle."

What does it mean to procede by generation? Or by spiration?

Oh, and I have to say this: having looked carefully at the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as described in scripture, it seems to me that the Eastern Orthodox got it right. The Spirit from the Father through the Son, not the Spirit from the Father and the Son. Tho, of course, both the Eastern and Roman churches have always claimed knowedge beyond scripture.

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I agree that the Spirit that comes through the Father and Son, is one, but the Father and Son are seperate. I was interested in the question you put to Scott and wanted to share what I found.
"In the economy of salvation, God's whole energy is devoted to the movement of the material to the spiritual. God causes this movement through interaction with the material world. What the early Christians recognised is that Jesus is the symbolic cause of our salvation. In this recognition they came to experience God as triune - Jesus' abba, the Father; Jesus, by relationship, the Son, the very symbol of God; and Jesus' indwelling Spirit, the Holy Spirit of God.

After the first few centuries, with the rise of a pluralism of interpretation of the memory of Jesus, the Church found the need to explore in detail the memory of the experience of God that Jesus made present in his disciples. What became known as the doctrine of the Trinity was recognised in the establishment of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. Now most Christians today do not consciously relate to God as Trinity in the one, two, three, four formulaic sense of the doctrine of the immanent Trinity:

There is:
one God,
two processions or missions (generation and spiration),
three hypostases giving rise to the trinity of persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), and
four relations (paternity, filiation, active spiration and passive spiration)." http://www.holynamewahroonga.com.au/Page47.htm#f6

Another way to explain this was found at: http://www.gocart.org/thesis.html
(1) the Father to the Son (the relation of paternity, which is the Father), (2) the Son to the Father (the relation of Filiation, which is the Son), (3) the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son (the relation of procession) (4) the Father and the Son to the Holy Spirit (the relation of Common Spiration). This seems to be rather odd. We have four relations, but only three Persons. How is this possible? The answer is that, within the Trinity, everything is one except where there is a relation of opposition, as we have said above. The relations in numbers (1), (2), and (3) are all relations of opposition. However, if we remember that there is only distinction in God where there is a relation of opposition, we will see that the relation in (4) cannot constitute as it were another person. For,

(a) Common Spiration is not opposed to fatherhood, nor is it opposed to sonship, nor is it opposed to each as generating love. Thus, since it is not opposed, i.e., not a relation of opposition, Common Spiration collapses into identity with fatherhood and sonship;

(b) Common Spiration is not a relative property, because it does not belong to only one person, but is common to two, it cannot constitute another person,

(c) However, both Father and Son are the Common Spirator, and consequently, it does not constitute another person, because Common Spiration is not separated from them, but belongs to both as from one principle. Thus,

(d) Common Spiration cannot be a person, because it is not distinct from all others within the divine nature, but is common to the Father and the Son.

I cannot find a definition for SPIRATION. However I found it in the following words:
IN-SPRITATION: a sudden intuition as part of solving a problem, or a psychic state in which one becomes susceptible to creative spiritual influence or, to a varying degree, unwittingly lends oneself as an instrument for through-flowing ideas.
CON-SPIRATION: as spirits in the sense of focus and energy transfer finding together and meeting, meant in an open sense

lilithu said:

I'm having a hard time understanding what Godhead means when there are three distinct "beings." Please don't think that I am arguing against your beliefs. I'm just trying to relate it to belief systems with which I am more familiar.

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Sorry for the delay in answering. I've been on vacation for two weeks and have a lot of catching up to do. It hadn't even occured to me that you might be arguing against my beliefs. Generally, I have a pretty good idea when I'm being insulted, and you didn't even approach the line. I understand what you're trying to do in relating my beliefs to something that is already familiar to you.

Except as I understand it, when Jefferson said this he was arguing against the divinity of Christ (and the Holy Spirit). For Jefferson, there was only God the creator and Jesus was a human who had a lot of wise things to say. In his own version of the bible Jefferson edited out all references to Jesus performing miracles or claiming divinity.

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That's interesting. I didn't know that Jefferson had revised the Bible in this way.

Well, it's a bit complicated but I'll try to be as concise as possible. In one view of Christianity, God is not a physical being; nor is God a "spirit/ghost." God is the "ground of being." That is, God is what makes existence possible. So it's not that God created the universe and then stopped. God continually creates/sustains the universe. The Holy Spirit then is "spirit of God" - God in action. Kind of like "team spirit" is to a team or "the spirit of Christmas" is to Christmas. In this case, spirit doesn't refer to a ghost; it refers to its active essence. God the Father is; the Holy Spirit does. Christ is God incarnate, made real and present to us. I won't go further into Christ because that really would be far off-topic.

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That's really, really interesting. I do see the Holy Ghost as the means by which God the Father communicates to man. So, in this respect, I can kind of go along with the spirit being God's "active essence," as you say. You are, of course, familiar with John 4:24, which states, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." The vast, vast majority of Christians and Jews (maybe other religions, too) see this as a statement describing God's physical makeup and use it to support their idea that He has no physical form whatsoever. The Latter-day Saints see it as a description of how God relates to man. A spirit is, of course, a life force of some kind. We see John 4:24 as explaining that God interacts with mankind through the Holy Ghost (an "active essence" or a "life force"). So in interpreting "God is [a] spirit," we see the Holy Ghost as being the part of the Godhead that, being spirit, this verse most likely refers to.

Wait, why is it that you reject original sin? Because Adam and Eve didn't know know right from wrong until they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? But they did know that God had told them not to. Tho one could argue that they didn't know that disobeying God was wrong until they ate the fruit. Interesting! Or are you saying that A&E did sin but it's not original sin in that we don't inherit it from them. That sin cannot be inherited since it requires a violation of one's own conscience? (As you can see, I have no trouble with veering off topic. )

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Well, since it's your topic... Here's why I said what I did:

First, we don't believe that Adam and Eve actually "sinned" in the true sense of the word because, as you pointed out, they didn't know the difference between right and wrong until they ate the forbidden truth. Yes, they did disobey God, but they were innocent at that point in our opinion. If I were to tell my 15-year old son (who thankfully is now 25 and not 15 any more) not to take the car without my permission and he did anyway, he'd be sinning. However, if I had told him when he was 2 years old not to touch the hot stove and he'd done so anyway, it wouldn't be quite the same thing. At two years old, he might have understood my words, but he wouldn't have been in a position to recognize that disobedience is sinful.

Second, we believe that when Adam and Eve "trangresssed," they were punished in two ways. First, they were cast out of the Garden of Eden. In other words, they suffered a "spiritual death" or separation from God. Second, they became subject to "physical death." We believe that the effects of physical death were universally atoned for by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Had He not been resurrected, none of us would have the promise of a future resurrection either. But we don't have to do anything at all to be resurrected -- except die. Thus, everyone who has ever lived will be "saved" from the permanance of death. As we are all descendents of Adam and Eve, we have inherited their sinful nature. But, because of Christ's Atonement, the effects of the spiritual death they brought into the world have been paid for already. Therefore, we are not in any way held accountable for their transgression. We are held accountable only for our own sins, and only after we reach an age where we have sufficient understanding to know the difference between right and wrong. Mormonism teaches that "the natural man is an enemy to God." We simply make a distinction between being "born in sin" or being "born sinners" and being "born predisposed to sin."

I hope this helps!

Kathryn