Do we have free will?

NetDoc said:

That those who argue against "free thought" or "free will" don't have teenaged sons or daughters.

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Hehehe... An amusing anecdote, but not very convincing. There is little doubt that people do X because they want to do X. At issue is whether the wanting to do X in the first place is dependent upon some conscious "choice" made by the person.

Mr_Spinkles said:

Well, if it were Microsoft Paint, I would agree with you. However, this is Artificial Intelligence....the people who made it do not tell it what to draw...AARON draws on its own. From the site:

"Cohen was initially interested in exploring how humans make and read representations (drawings, pictures, shapes, etc.). He believed that if he could teach a computer how to draw, he would have a better understanding of this process. So he began to build an application that would be able to create original vs. pre-programmed drawings -- an artist vs. simply an artistic tool.

He ultimately designed an application that uses an expert based system to hierarchically encapsulate and model the behavior that an artist employs to create art. At the highest level, the application makes decisions relating to the organization and composition of its images. At the lowest level, it computes the instructions for drawing the lines and shapes that make up the drawing." [emphasis added]

The ability to create unique, abstract images does not mean that humans have free will, since codes of 1's and 0's (which don't have free will) have the same ability.

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The artistry is not the same as that in a painting or drawing, even though the expression resembles those mediums. Instead it is in the programming where the artistry lies. The fact that the programmer does not know what the outcome of the program will look like is merely a result of adding randomization into the code.

Even doing nothing is considered a choice of free will. Doing nothing is a decision which is complete with its own ramifications.

You could've had a V8.

atofel said:

it is in the programming where the artistry lies. The fact that the programmer does not know what the outcome of the program will look like is merely a result of adding randomization into the code.

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And the fact that I do not know what a human artist's painting will look like is merely the result of randomization in their brain chemistry....so what? The fact remains that what we call "art" can be created by very complex (and somewhat random) patterns--no free will required.

capthowdy said:

Do we have free will?

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No.

.... but I'm not sure why I posted that.

michel said:

The main argument I have with what you say is when you get to .."God knows the choices we are going to make"..............

I disagree with that; God presents us with various options - it is up to us to decide which option we take. The paths from each option may also be foreknown by God, but that does'nt negate our duty to make a choice.

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I said the exact same thing (at least I tried to)

Mr_Spinkles said:

Hehehe... An amusing anecdote, but not very convincing. There is little doubt that people do X because they want to do X. At issue is whether the wanting to do X in the first place is dependent upon some conscious "choice" made by the person.

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Taking you up on that one, Mr_Spinkles I would re-phrase that to read 'people do x because they want to do x; knowing, from past experience, that x is a pleasurable and rewarding experience. That still allows for conscious choice - but the choice is dependent on previous experience.

I'm a simple person, and so, a simple answer. We SEEM to have freewill and we SEEM to make choices. That's good enough for me. (I can't think of anything we SEEM to do but don't...save for lying or acting. And they are both intentional anyways).

Your "will" is enslaved to sin . . . therefore it is not free . . . until God does otherwise.

TheGreaterGame said:

Your "will" is enslaved to sin . . . therefore it is not free . . . until God does otherwise.

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And what about your "will". Is it free yet?

Well in some sense it is free (you still have God's sovreighnty behind every choice made by man) . . . but now I'm actually not a slave . . . I'm a son . . . I'm adopted child of God . . . because of Christ. Galatians 4:1-7

We do NOT have free will.
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If we sin and are lost, our punishment is said to be death and hell. Sure to be to the point here....uh, that is not free will...

Stormygale said:

We do NOT have free will.
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If we sin and are lost, our punishment is said to be death and hell. Sure to be to the point here....uh, that is not free will...

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What about forgiveness? What about repentance?

TheGreaterGame said:

Well in some sense it is free (you still have God's sovreighnty behind every choice made by man) . . . but now I'm actually not a slave . . . I'm a son . . . I'm adopted child of God . . . because of Christ. Galatians 4:1-7

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I think we are talking apples and oranges...or should I say apples and some really old, dusty, unedible, oranges. And besides, you still haven't enlightened anyone on the subject. The term "freewill" has everything to do with mankind, and nothing to do with religion. I would enjoy a thoughtful response that comes from your imagination versus scripture.

In the end EnhancedSpirit, it all boils down to the fact that if we sin, we are condemned. We have to go back and plead for forgiveness, or suffer the same fate. Then, the word tell us that if we go back to our sins, then, we are dogs returning to our vomit. If we backslide, we are seven times worse. That is not 'freewill' anyway you put it. The whole thing with religion is, sure you can ask to be forgiven for your petty transgressions, however, live by the rules I have set before you, or else....not free will to me....lol

Stormygale said:

In the end EnhancedSpirit, it all boils down to the fact that if we sin, we are condemned. We have to go back and plead for forgiveness, or suffer the same fate. Then, the word tell us that if we go back to our sins, then, we are dogs returning to our vomit. If we backslide, we are seven times worse. That is not 'freewill' anyway you put it. The whole thing with religion is, sure you can ask to be forgiven for your petty transgressions, however, live by the rules I have set before you, or else....not free will to me....lol

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When asked how many times we are to forgive our brother, it is said that we are to forgive him over and over and over again. You would get the same from God.

You do not have to plead for forgiveness. We ask for forgiveness. And God has forgiven us before we even ask. The hard part is forgiving yourself. If you feel you are unworthy of forgiveness, guilt will shadow your heart, fear will blind you to the light that Jesus shed upon the path.

'Forgive us our tresspasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.'

This subject came up in another thread and Tawn suggested I posted my thoughts here. So here they are.

Stating we have freewill does not mean there are not limitations or influences on our behavior.

For example, suppose we are crawling through a narrow tunnel for several days. The tunnel has twists and turns, but it does not have any intersections. Once we exit the tunnel and are on open ground we may express a strong sense of freedom. This expression of freedom does not mean we can move any direction we choose--for example, we cannot fly into the air, or tunnel through the ground. However, it does express the ability to have more control over our movement. "Free" is a comparative operator, and should not be perceived as meaning an absence of any restraints and restrictions we can think of.

The tunnel would be our existance with no freewill. The open land is our true experience. There is still some influence the environment places on us (e.g. whether we will go uphill or downhill, through the brush or through the plains, etc). Just because there are many terrain features that interfere or guide our decisions does not mean we have no control.

I think that analogy is quite apt for explaining how free will and restrictions on choices work together..

However, id like to get down to a much smaller scale..

Lets say at some point there is a decision.. there are two choices. How does free will actually pick beteen two choices? How does this work?

Lets say at some point there is a decision.. there are two choices. How does free will actually pick beteen two choices? How does this work?

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For it to be free, wouldn't there have to be no mechanism which defines how it works? Otherwise such a mechanism would lend some sort of bias to one of the options in a given circumstance meaning that the choice is purely random or not entirely free.