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Do we have free will?

Scuba Pete

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
If you want to see some "chaotic choices" go diving in the Keys sometimes. I have seen people with little air left decide to penetrate a wreck, or to spear that WHOPPING grouper. Unfortunately for some, that will be one of the LAST decisions they make on this earthly plane.
 
Nick Soapdish

Nick Soapdish

Secret Agent
Mr_Spinkles said:
Yes, I know you think the programmer has free will--whether or not people have free will is the topic under debate right now. :) What's significant here is that you concede that codes of 1's and 0's do not have free will. Thus, the ability to use artistic techniques to create an abstract representation of reality (in other words, to create artwork) is not a valid criterion for judging whether or not we humans have free will.

Again, I know you believe in free will--but that is the subject of debate right now. The point is, artwork is clearly not a good way of distinguishing between things that do have "free will" and things that don't.
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I do not see the software as the source of the art, but rather as the tool to render it. Anything a computer can execute, can be executed with paper and pencil--it just may not be practical to do so (might require truck loads of paper). Computers are really just tools of efficiency.
 
C

Christopher Krajewski

Member
Still by free will the actions we deem responsible depend on what we would regard as exemplary to other people in the religious society we do or do not belong to. I guess you would like to simplify the personal relationship to God. But I believe that God allows me mistakes; and those mistakes are because I really had a choice between good and bad.

The question remains when is it decided when the good and bad is determined of it. I believe it was already determined by divine determinism or the indeterminism of the ends I WANT. Free will is well within the ethics of not knowing what knowledge I approach for the value. It might not be complicated, but it surely is a matter for trusting the knowledge Others have forced or gifted me with.:eek:
 
chuck010342

chuck010342

Active Member
capthowdy said:
I'm making this thread to continue a debate I engaged Tawn in, over if free will does truly exsist. If anyone else has any thoughts on the subject then your posts are welcome. Anyways where were we?
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It seems to me that we have the ability to choose our own will. We have free will because we have the ability to make choices. Coming from a theological stand point some believe that their is no free will because God already knows what our choices are going to be. People however forget that its GOD GOD knows the choices we are going to make so then how can we be responsible for Sin because God already knew that we are going to sin. The major problem of this view is that God has already paid the penalty for Sin in the death of his son on the cross.
 
Mr Spinkles

Mr Spinkles

Mr
atofel said:
I do not see the software as the source of the art
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Well, if it were Microsoft Paint, I would agree with you. However, this is Artificial Intelligence....the people who made it do not tell it what to draw...AARON draws on its own. From the site:

"Cohen was initially interested in exploring how humans make and read representations (drawings, pictures, shapes, etc.). He believed that if he could teach a computer how to draw, he would have a better understanding of this process. So he began to build an application that would be able to create original vs. pre-programmed drawings -- an artist vs. simply an artistic tool.

He ultimately designed an application that uses an expert based system to hierarchically encapsulate and model the behavior that an artist employs to create art. At the highest level, the application makes decisions relating to the organization and composition of its images. At the lowest level, it computes the instructions for drawing the lines and shapes that make up the drawing." [emphasis added]

The ability to create unique, abstract images does not mean that humans have free will, since codes of 1's and 0's (which don't have free will) have the same ability.
 
michel

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
chuck010342 said:
It seems to me that we have the ability to choose our own will. We have free will because we have the ability to make choices. Coming from a theological stand point some believe that their is no free will because God already knows what our choices are going to be. People however forget that its GOD GOD knows the choices we are going to make so then how can we be responsible for Sin because God already knew that we are going to sin. The major problem of this view is that God has already paid the penalty for Sin in the death of his son on the cross.
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The main argument I have with what you say is when you get to .."God knows the choices we are going to make"..............

I disagree with that; God presents us with various options - it is up to us to decide which option we take. The paths from each option may also be foreknown by God, but that does'nt negate our duty to make a choice.:)
 
Fluffy

Fluffy

A fool
Yes, but lets not get ahead of ourselves.. just because we think were right doesnt make us right.. ;) I do find though that people dont tend to take the suggestion of no free will very seriously..
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lol yes sorry I am getting carried away now :).
 
T

Tawn

Active Member
Mr_Spinkles said:
He ultimately designed an application that uses an expert based system to hierarchically encapsulate and model the behavior that an artist employs to create art. At the highest level, the application makes decisions relating to the organization and composition of its images. At the lowest level, it computes the instructions for drawing the lines and shapes that make up the drawing." [emphasis added]

The ability to create unique, abstract images does not mean that humans have free will, since codes of 1's and 0's (which don't have free will) have the same ability.
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I dont think most people will be able to accept that we are nothing more than organic computers. Theyll always look for some difference between such an application and humans. The thing is we dont know exactly how the human brain works yet.. but will most likely will one day.. question is.. will people like what is found? Probably not. Could be even more controversial than Evolution.
 
T

Tawn

Active Member
NetDoc said:
An organic computer... My friend you have been watching (or reading) HHGTTG way too much!
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Ahhh... Hitchhikers Guide is brilliant!! I particularly like the babel fish and how its existance disproves god.. lol.. theres actually a lot of sense and intelligence mixed into surreal comedy.. look at Monty Python.. :)
 
Ormiston

Ormiston

Well-Known Member
If freewill does truly exist among humans then does it exist among flies, amoebas (sp?), worms, virusses...? My question is, does freewill have a threashold that it begins at? [May have already been asked...I didn't read the whole thread]
 
Fluffy

Fluffy

A fool
If freewill does truly exist among humans then does it exist among flies, amoebas (sp?), worms, virusses...? My question is, does freewill have a threashold that it begins at? [May have already been asked...I didn't read the whole thread]
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In other words you are asking what exactly is the prerequisite for free will? If one had been discovered then I certainly wouldn't be holding my views :). I'd be interested as to other people's beliefs, however.
 
cardero

cardero

Citizen Mod
Tawn said:
Agree with all Spikles has been saying..

Art by the way, is more about the process than the end result. I study Architecture and when I do a design project I have to demonstrate a process of ideas and developments which cannot at any point by arbitary. There is no room for free will - to make haphazard choices based on nothing - this is a rigourous process. I think youll find all art follows a similar process.. there are always ideas and influences behind pieces of art.
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This is called free thought (whether it is original or not). It still takes time and will and dedication and responsibility to do or complete the materialization into something physical. You can choose to do it or not, this is the free will aspect.
 
Scuba Pete

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
It just occurred to me...

That those who argue against "free thought" or "free will" don't have teenaged sons or daughters.

Go ahead and tell them to do "X". They won't. Not unless they WANT to do "X".

Ahhh, so I'll use a little reverse psychology to get them to do it. Nope. It ain't happeneing!

Ahhhhhh, maybe I'll use a little reverse psychology with a double twist. Nope. Their "free will" mode has kicked in, and I am now seen as the oppressor.

Ahhhhhhhhhh, maybe I'll use a FAKE reverse psychology with a double twist. Jimminy! That won't work either!
 
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