Those wise in the world...

Pah · Apr 9, 2005

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, at Shreveport's annual Red Mass banquet, said that those wise in the world would not accept Christianity and he said that based on scripture.

Wow!

What is the verse (not a test but looking for where it is)?
What is the context?
What does that really mean?

may · Apr 9, 2005

pah said:
U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, at Shreveport's annual Red Mass banquet, said that those wise in the world would not accept Christianity and he said that based on scripture.

Wow!

What is the verse (not a test but looking for where it is)?
What is the context?
What does that really mean?

For it is written: "I will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] I will shove aside." 20 Where is the wise man? Where the scribe? Where the debater of this system of things? Did not God make the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not get to know God, God saw good through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing.(1 corinthians 1; 19-21 the Greeks of the time were known as interletual men , and they were not interested in the simple message of jesus.they boasted about there learning and philosophy. is that the one do you think

Pah · Apr 9, 2005

may said:
For it is written: "I will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] I will shove aside." 20 Where is the wise man? Where the scribe? Where the debater of this system of things? Did not God make the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not get to know God, God saw good through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing.(1 corinthians 1; 19-21 the Greeks of the time were known as interletual men , and they were not interested in the simple message of jesus.they boasted about there learning and philosophy. is that the one do you think

Sounds like it might be

michel · Apr 9, 2005

So, in other words, they were so full of themselves as to make God fell the need to give them a mental kick up the backside ? - is that how you see it Pah ?

Pah · Apr 9, 2005

michel said:
So, in other words, they were so full of themselves as to make God fell the need to give them a mental kick up the backside ? - is that how you see it Pah ?

On reading the verses in Gateway, I don't know that it included all wise men. If you look at the times and you look at the type of wisdom that was denegrated, I think it applied to the philosphers of the times. Of course philosophy covered more fields of knowledge then so it just must be taken to cover all the educated. But I think that is wrong if you consider the historical environment. But I know some will say evolutionist scientists WOULD be included.

What do you think - was Justice Scalia a bit off-base since he did not explain it?

may · Apr 9, 2005

pah said:
On reading the verses in Gateway, I don't know that it included all wise men. If you look at the times and you look at the type of wisdom that was denegrated, I think it applied to the philosphers of the times. Of course philosophy covered more fields of knowledge then so it just must be taken to cover all the educated. But I think that is wrong if you consider the historical environment. But I know some will say evolutionist scientists WOULD be included.

What do you think - was Justice Scalia a bit off-base since he did not explain it?

Despite all the philosophical debates and investigations of the wise men of ancient Greece, their writings show that they found no genuine basis for hope. Professors J. R. S. Sterrett and Samuel Angus point out: "No literature contains more pathetic laments over the sorrows of life, the passing of love, the deceitfulness of hope, and the ruthlessness of death."Funk and Wagnalls New "Standard" Bible Dictionary, 1936, page 313
even thou paul spoke Greek ,he did not believe in the philosphy, he preached about the kingdom the same as jesus did, even thou it was foolishness to the world around him

Sunstone · Apr 9, 2005

So, is the bible anti-intellectual?

scitsofreaky · Apr 9, 2005

Sunstone said:
So, is the bible anti-intellectual?

Yes, it is against "worldly intelligence," which makes sense because the religion tends to fail for those who are intellectual.

Scuba Pete · Apr 9, 2005

The Bible is ANYTHING but anti-intellectual.

It IS anti-pride.

Men who think that they know everything have fallen into a prideful pit. Those who think that mankind can account for EVERYTHING fall into a similar pit. It is only when you realise that you know nothing that you can truly begin to learn. Only when you realise how weak you are that you can truly be strong.

Sunstone · Apr 9, 2005

So, there is an anti-intellectual streak in Christianity. But surely not all Christians are anti-intellectual? Afterall, most of Western culture and most of its intellectual accomplishments were created by Christians.

Joannicius · Apr 10, 2005

I agree with NetDoc and must say that God gave us intellect to enjoy and use in this world but not to worship or rely on. We rely on the one who gave it to us and worship The Holy Trinity and not men. Like all beautiful things from our creator, it (intellect) is to be enjoyed but not abused. Of course, wisdom, and the application of it, is far above intellect.

michel · Apr 10, 2005

scitsofreaky said:
Yes, it is against "worldly intelligence," which makes sense because the religion tends to fail for those who are intellectual.

Ouch! I think you might do well to apologise to Bible readers everywhere for that comment, scitsofreaky - even if it came from one of your other selves.:tsk:

scitsofreaky · Apr 10, 2005

michel said:
Ouch! I think you might do well to apologise to Bible readers everywhere for that comment, scitsofreaky - even if it came from one of your other selves.:tsk:

I'm sorry for anyone I offended. It was part joke, and not aimed at everyone.

Scuba Pete · Apr 10, 2005

Religion tends to fail EVERYONE. A relationship with God however, is worth far more than any degree man has to offer.

Ceridwen018 · Apr 10, 2005

I think it's easy to write this all off by saying that the Greeks were proud, but I think this deserves more special attention. The Greeks were the most intellectually and philosophically advanced civilization of their time. When Paul travelled there to preach to him, they heard him out, but basically laughed at him in the end.

The Greeks certainly weren't stupid, and their greatest fear was that of overlooking some god who would then get them in the end, (they even had an altar built to all of the "unknown gods"). I think that their rejection of Paul's message is significant, but maybe that's just me.

Joannicius · Apr 24, 2005

scitsofreaky said:
Yes, it is against "worldly intelligence," which makes sense because the religion tends to fail for those who are intellectual.

I would rephrase that to: "intellect tends to fail when faith is applied"

Joannicius · Apr 24, 2005

Ceridwen018 said:
I think it's easy to write this all off by saying that the Greeks were proud, but I think this deserves more special attention. The Greeks were the most intellectually and philosophically advanced civilization of their time. When Paul travelled there to preach to him, they heard him out, but basically laughed at him in the end.

The Greeks certainly weren't stupid, and their greatest fear was that of overlooking some god who would then get them in the end, (they even had an altar built to all of the "unknown gods"). I think that their rejection of Paul's message is significant, but maybe that's just me.

Looking at the history of The Church, I would say that the ones of Greece who accepted the Christ of Paul's teachings had a lot more impact on the World than those who rejected it.

Scuba Pete · Apr 24, 2005

Ceridwen,

Many Greeks were converted in spite of their "intellect".

EnhancedSpirit · Apr 25, 2005

God speaks often in favor of wisdom. I found this translation which might clear up these verses in 1 Cor. 1

18 The Message that points to Christ on the Cross seems like sheer silliness to those hellbent on destruction, but for those on the way of salvation it makes perfect sense. This is the way God works, and most powerfully as it turns out. 19 It's written, I'll turn conventional wisdom on its head, I'll expose so-called experts as crackpots. 20 So where can you find someone truly wise, truly educated, truly intelligent in this day and age? Hasn't God exposed it all as pretentious nonsense? 21 Since the world in all its fancy wisdom never had a clue when it came to knowing God, God in his wisdom took delight in using what the world considered dumb - preaching, of all things! - to bring those who trust him into the way of salvation. 22 While Jews clamor for miraculous demonstrations and Greeks go in for philosophical wisdom, 23 we go right on proclaiming Christ, the Crucified. Jews treat this like an anti-miracle - and Greeks pass it off as absurd. 24 But to us who are personally called by God himself - Christ is God's ultimate miracle and wisdom all wrapped up in one. 25 Human wisdom is so tinny, so impotent, next to the seeming absurdity of God. Human strength can't begin to compete with God's "weakness."

Remember, folks, the world used to be flat.

michel · Apr 25, 2005

NetDoc said:
The Bible is ANYTHING but anti-intellectual.

It IS anti-pride.

Men who think that they know everything have fallen into a prideful pit. Those who think that mankind can account for EVERYTHING fall into a similar pit. It is only when you realise that you know nothing that you can truly begin to learn. Only when you realise how weak you are that you can truly be strong.

I could'nt agree with you more NetDoc, of course the Bible is aimed at anyone and everyone, intelectual, written by intellectuals; I am surprised that anyone could even think that it is anti-intellectual.

Just one idea though; have you ever seen yourself at an instant when you have thought "How does....(Whatever).. apply in the modern world" ? - ie is the Bible, for you, timeless ?

Those wise in the world...

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