Heaven and Hell?

lilithu · Apr 20, 2005

Majikthise said:
Yes. What better way to coerse people into behaving as you see fit than to promise them eternal bliss for following and pain and suffering for independent thought? It's much more cost effective and less destructive physically than brute force. Concepts of heaven and hell may differ slightly from one religion to another but the basic premise is the same. Different cultures have different ideas of what is saintly and what is evil. If we were forced to eat dogs we would consider it hell, another culture might consider it heaven.

No, I disagree. You are assuming that in all these cultures someone was both astute and cynical enough invent a meme that would control the population. I'm not disagreeing that these concepts have been subsequently used to that effect, but I think the concepts of heaven and hell first arise naturally within religious belief as a source of comfort.

Let me explain:
We all die. That reality is scary enough to a lot of people, so the concept of an afterlife provides hope and comfort to a lot of people. But once you have the concept of an afterlife, there's the question of what the afterlife will be like. Well...in addition to the observation that we all die, is the equally obvious observation that life is not fair. It isn't. Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. And then they die. But, we want to believe in fairness. We want to believe that the universe (or God) is fair. We want to believe that if life isn't fair then surely justice will prevail in the afterlife. Surely the good will be rewarded and the bad will be punished. Surely, your innocent daughter who died of the plague when she was three is in a blissful afterlife that we'll call heaven. Surely, the evil warlord who raped and murdered your grandmother and then died peacefully in his sleep in old age surrounded by wealth and admired by sycophants is in a painful afterlife that we'll call hell. And since the afterlife lasts a lot lot longer than life, then the universe is fair afterall. People usually believe that they are good enough to go to heaven while their enemies are bad enough to go to hell. Both of these concepts provide comfort, not just heaven. Only later do they get co-opted by some religious authorities in order to scare people into line with fears of hell and mollify the oppressed with promises of heaven.

michel · Apr 20, 2005

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to lilithu again.:banghead3

Majikthise · Apr 20, 2005

lilithu said:
No, I disagree. You are assuming that in all these cultures someone was both astute and cynical enough invent a meme that would control the population. I'm not disagreeing that these concepts have been subsequently used to that effect, but I think the concepts of heaven and hell first arise naturally within religious belief as a source of comfort.

Let me explain:
We all die. That reality is scary enough to a lot of people, so the concept of an afterlife provides hope and comfort to a lot of people. But once you have the concept of an afterlife, there's the question of what the afterlife will be like. Well...in addition to the observation that we all die, is the equally obvious observation that life is not fair. It isn't. Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. And then they die. But, we want to believe in fairness. We want to believe that the universe (or God) is fair. We want to believe that if life isn't fair then surely justice will prevail in the afterlife. Surely the good will be rewarded and the bad will be punished. Surely, your innocent daughter who died of the plague when she was three is in a blissful afterlife that we'll call heaven. Surely, the evil warlord who raped and murdered your grandmother and then died peacefully in his sleep in old age surrounded by wealth and admired by sycophants is in a painful afterlife that we'll call hell. And since the afterlife lasts a lot lot longer than life, then the universe is fair afterall. People usually believe that they are good enough to go to heaven while their enemies are bad enough to go to hell. Both of these concepts provide comfort, not just heaven. Only later do they get co-opted by some religious authorities in order to scare people into line with fears of hell and mollify the oppressed with promises of heaven.

I agree with you and oracle on the probable origins of these concepts in their earliest introductions. I would think even small isolated gruops would be capable of inventing such ideas themselves from the reasonings you have stated. But Istill beleive these ideas were speedily perverted by individuals seeking power and control.We do live in a time where tolerance and free thought are more acceptable than ever and many now openly challenge such religious dogma.This IMHO, is why everyone is screaming {insert religion here} bashing these days.

Scott1 · Apr 20, 2005

Majikthise said:
The specious idea of heaven and hell affects the thoughts and actions of human beings thereby manifesting itself in the physical world.

Well.... you've made some pretty big leaps here..... you seem to think that your personal perception of heaven and hell is the standard of thought..... it is not.

Heaven and hell hardly enter the mind of a "true" Christian.

In my world.... a relationship with/serving in the name of Christ is based on love.... not rewards or punishment:

After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself. St. Thérèse of Lisieux

oracle · Apr 20, 2005

SOGFPP said:
Well.... you've made some pretty big leaps here..... you seem to think that your personal perception of heaven and hell is the standard of thought..... it is not.

Heaven and hell hardly enter the mind of a "true" Christian.

In my world.... a relationship with/serving in the name of Christ is based on love.... not rewards or punishment:

After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself. St. Thérèse of Lisieux

I am really begining to like Catholics more and more.

Majikthise · Apr 20, 2005

SOGFPP said:
Well.... you've made some pretty big leaps here..... you seem to think that your personal perception of heaven and hell is the standard of thought..... it is not.

I agree. My perception is not the standard of thought and I never claimed it was. My personal perception of heaven and hell is that they do not exsist except in our minds. They are originated there and projected into the physical world by those seeking justice or some nefarious ends. It's all in our heads.

lilithu · Apr 20, 2005

SOGFPP said:
Heaven and hell hardly enter the mind of a "true" Christian.

Or any other true lovers of God.

SOGFPP said:
In my world.... a relationship with/serving in the name of Christ is based on love.... not rewards or punishment:

Altho Rabia has already been quoted twice on the Forums that I know of, her words bear repeating:

O my Lord, if I worship Thee from fear of Hell, burn me in Hell,
and if I worship Thee in hope of Paradise, exclude me thence, but if
I worship Thee for Thine own sake withhold not from me Thine
eternal beauty. -- Rabia al-Adawiyya

Ya gotta luv those mystics!!

oracle · Apr 20, 2005

lilithu said:
Let me explain:
We all die. That reality is scary enough to a lot of people, so the concept of an afterlife provides hope and comfort to a lot of people. But once you have the concept of an afterlife, there's the question of what the afterlife will be like. Well...in addition to the observation that we all die, is the equally obvious observation that life is not fair. It isn't. Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. And then they die. But, we want to believe in fairness. We want to believe that the universe (or God) is fair. We want to believe that if life isn't fair then surely justice will prevail in the afterlife. Surely the good will be rewarded and the bad will be punished. Surely, your innocent daughter who died of the plague when she was three is in a blissful afterlife that we'll call heaven. Surely, the evil warlord who raped and murdered your grandmother and then died peacefully in his sleep in old age surrounded by wealth and admired by sycophants is in a painful afterlife that we'll call hell. And since the afterlife lasts a lot lot longer than life, then the universe is fair afterall. People usually believe that they are good enough to go to heaven while their enemies are bad enough to go to hell. Both of these concepts provide comfort, not just heaven. Only later do they get co-opted by some religious authorities in order to scare people into line with fears of hell and mollify the oppressed with promises of heaven.

I think you bring up a very good point, lilithu. We need fairness, just like we need a purpose in life, it's a natural thing. Even animals react to social unfairness, according to experiments done recently. You can find an article on this in Scientific American Mind, volume 16, number 1, page 8. The offended primates protested in the experiment when they sensed inequity. God has to implement fairness, otherwise we protest. When very bad things happen to people who have faith in God, they protest and question God's existence. Life needs to be fair for us. My question would be, does sending someone to hell make life anymore fair? I think hell is a place that we create, and we can externalize it here.

Heaven and Hell?

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate

michel

Administrator Emeritus

Majikthise

Guest

Scott1

Well-Known Member

oracle

Active Member