Little something to think about...

Scuba Pete · Apr 10, 2005

JesusIsTheWay said:
True, God does use any tool he wants. But where does it say that God used evolution in the Bible? Its talking about a literal 7 days!

Is it??? The hebrew translated as day, meant "work period". They did not understand "hours" as we do, and had no concept of epochs. I am sure when you are talking with a three year old that you tend to oversimplify the words so that they can understand your real message. 2000 years ago we had matured as a culture so far, that God was able to do a change up. He got rid of all the picky little laws designed to make us safe and gave us more to think about. Instead of telling us HOW to love him and love our fellow humans, he has just told us to do it. I am sure that were he to write an accounting of the creation today, that it would look FAR different than Genesis. Has God changed??? No... WE HAVE.

I Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Quoth The Raven · Apr 16, 2005

JesusIsTheWay said:
True, God does use any tool he wants. But where does it say that God used evolution in the Bible? Its talking about a literal 7 days!

Only if that's how you interpret it. You're not even taking into account the use of Genesis as an explaination for why a week is 7 days and one of those days is The Sabbath and rest you work (cos thats what God did, and no man is above God).
There was another debate involving who told the very first lie: Eve or the serpent. My answer was God, because he told Adam that if he ate the fruit he would die that very day, and as he lived for 800 years that was obviously false. Someone replied that a day for God is worth 1000 years as we measure time, so in fact Adam did die on the very day he ate the fruit.
Just because a book says something took 7 days doesn't make it a literal telling of time as we comprehend it. If God wanted to, there would be plenty of time for him to throw together a little primordial ooze from some stuff at the back of the pantry, zap it with some electrodes and yell,' It is aliiiive!' then just step back and watch the results.
Surely you're not trying to tell us that God is constrained by how you measure time...are you?

michel · Apr 16, 2005

[PART QUOTE=lady_lazarus]
........"Surely you're not trying to tell us that God is constrained by how you measure time...are you?" .......[/QUOTE]
That is something, I must admit, that I had never thought about - and actually serves to tie up some loose ends in my way of interpreting God. Thank you Lady l; fruballs to you!

Scuba Pete · Apr 16, 2005

Actually LL,

I don't think God lied at all. Many assume that he meant physical death, while in reality he meant spiritual death, or being seperated from God. Both Adam and Eve died spiritually... they lost their innocense... and were cast out of the Garden. How sad!

Quoth The Raven · Apr 16, 2005

NetDoc said:
Actually LL,

I don't think God lied at all. Many assume that he meant physical death, while in reality he meant spiritual death, or being seperated from God. Both Adam and Eve died spiritually... they lost their innocense... and were cast out of the Garden. How sad!

I wasn't actually saying he lied either. On the other thread I was just offering an alternative veiwpoint (and stirring the pot a bit

). Considering I think Genesis is just another creation myth it would be like me saying that The Rainbow Serpent told lies. I was giving trying to give an example of how 7 days may not be 7 literal human days to someone who was applying lack of time as an argument against God using evolution. I used the example to support my argument that even other Christians don't necessarily think time for us and time God is the same thing.
Tell me, do you think God made Adam and Eve out of dirt in a single day and said 'Don't eat that fruit,' or do you think it's all largely symbolic?
Even when I was Christian, I didn't believe it was a statement of fact, so there was no fruit and therefore no-one told any lies.

Scuba Pete · Apr 16, 2005

I don't believe it to be untrue... and I don't claim to understand it whatsoever either! I have speculations and opinions, but suffice it to say, that the empty tomb is all I need to know that God is in control. Everything else is minor in relationship to that.

However, I do feel that a LOT of the misunderstanding and acrimony arises over people taking spiritual issues and trying to make them physical issues. God is Spirit. Those who choose to worship him must do it in spirit and in truth!

Quoth The Raven · Apr 16, 2005

NetDoc said:
I don't believe it to be untrue... and I don't claim to understand it whatsoever either! I have speculations and opinions, but suffice it to say, that the empty tomb is all I need to know that God is in control. Everything else is minor in relationship to that.

However, I do feel that a LOT of the misunderstanding and acrimony arises over people taking spiritual issues and trying to make them physical issues. God is Spirit. Those who choose to worship him must do it in spirit and in truth!

See, and that's why you're one of the better Christians I've known

.

Faust · Apr 16, 2005

I believe that NetDoc is positive proof of evolution.

He weighs the evidence at hand and and adapts to the world as it exists.
His positive outlook, insight, and honest and respectful exchanges, coupled with his ability to incorporate science into his belief system, in my opinion, is exactly the way religion needs to evolve in order for it to survive in our modern world.
As he has made clear in previous posts, and I'm paraphrasing because I couldn't hope to say it as well, we live in a different world than when the Bible was written. We have so much more information and ability. Trying to promote a strict adherence to outlooks formulated by peoples who didn't have our level of sophistication is damaging to theology.
I may not believe in God, but I believe in NetDoc. I have a great deal of respect for him and for his highly evolved method of maintaining the purity of his religion and bringing it with him into the future.
Faust.

Scuba Pete · Apr 17, 2005

Geez...

You guys are making me blush!

SportyAngel2oo6 · Apr 17, 2005

Good post. I agree with how the world and man were created with age already in them. Because it makes sense... God could have created the mountains, trees, and etc like he did Adam, already mature. This could account for the supposed age of the earth being in the millions.

To those who are saying that losing and gaining traits both show evolution as true, there are two different types of evolution. "Microevolution is the occurrence of small-scale changes in gene frequencies in a population over a few generations, also known as change at or below the species level. These changes may be due to several processes: mutation, gene flow, genetic drift, as well as natural selection. Population genetics is the branch of biology that provides the mathematical structure for the study of the process of microevolution. Biologists distinguish between microevolution and macroevolution, which is the occurrence of large-scale changes in gene frequencies in a population over a long period of time (and may culminate in the evolution of new species). Typically, observable instances of evolution are examples of microevolution; for example, bacterial strains that have become resistant to antibiotics. Because microevolution can be observed directly, both pro-evolution and some anti-evolution groups agree that it is a fact of life." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microevolution)
Microevolution is a proven fact and is seen daily while macroevolution isnt because it has no evidence.

Jessica

SportyAngel2oo6 · Apr 17, 2005

NetDoc said:
However, I do feel that a LOT of the misunderstanding and acrimony arises over people taking spiritual issues and trying to make them physical issues. God is Spirit. Those who choose to worship him must do it in spirit and in truth!

I disagree with this. God created the earth and through the world we can learn about God and his character. Christians should not hide from discussions about physical issues because that is our strongest evidence for God's existance! other than Jesus and the Bible, which if you arent a christian, usually have no validity to you. God gave us natural revelation for a reason. He wants us to see him in creation and that creation shows he intellect, design, and care.

Fatmop · Apr 18, 2005

Netdoc isn't hiding from anything. He is interpreting the Bible in a far less literal way than the fundmentalists who post here, and it's quite irrefutable.

Faust · Apr 20, 2005

SportyAngel2006 said:
I disagree with this. God created the earth and through the world we can learn about God and his character. Christians should not hide from discussions about physical issues because that is our strongest evidence for God's existance! other than Jesus and the Bible, which if you arent a christian, usually have no validity to you. God gave us natural revelation for a reason. He wants us to see him in creation and that creation shows he intellect, design, and care.

And I must disagree with this.
What do you mean by natural revelation? Is this meant to mean what you feel to be true?
Why would human beings be endowed with the ability to question, test, and learn by a creator if that creator did not want them to discover his or her mysteries?
Faust.

indecisive cookies!!! · Aug 30, 2006

JesusIsTheWay said:
Here's a couple points I want to make.

1.) God created Adam and Eve mature, and also the rest of the world. It did not "mature" from eggs, seeds, ect, but was created fully "mature".

2.) The flood would explain the underwater elements on mountops and the large buildup of sediments on the Earth's crust.

3.) There was a fruitfly experiment done awhile ago (I think it was in London) to observe the "evolution" of the frutifly. Well the expierment ended up with the fruitfly actually losing traits and not gaining or evolving the slightest bit.

4.) The complex design of our minds and bodies are proof of creation.

5.) Take a good look at the world around you, God's creation? or not?

6.) Also explain the chances that the solar system ended up in the perfection that it did. And the fact the that life can be supported on Earth is incredible, what's the chances of that?

7.) How much sense does this make: "nothing times nothing equals everything". Last time I checked 0x0=0 not anything else. And believing in God is crazy?

Some food for thought.
Have a good day/night
- David

4 of those arent real points you know

Real Sorceror · Aug 31, 2006

JesusIsTheWay said:
Here's a couple points I want to make.

1.) God created Adam and Eve mature, and also the rest of the world. It did not "mature" from eggs, seeds, ect, but was created fully "mature".

2.) The flood would explain the underwater elements on mountops and the large buildup of sediments on the Earth's crust.

3.) There was a fruitfly experiment done awhile ago (I think it was in London) to observe the "evolution" of the frutifly. Well the expierment ended up with the fruitfly actually losing traits and not gaining or evolving the slightest bit.

4.) The complex design of our minds and bodies are proof of creation.

5.) Take a good look at the world around you, God's creation? or not?

6.) Also explain the chances that the solar system ended up in the perfection that it did. And the fact the that life can be supported on Earth is incredible, what's the chances of that?

7.) How much sense does this make: "nothing times nothing equals everything". Last time I checked 0x0=0 not anything else. And believing in God is crazy?

Some food for thought.
Have a good day/night
- David

1) Yup, thats what the Bible says. I don't much care for Biblical "history" though.
2) Guess what? Those mountains didn't always exist. They where formed by plate tectonics and glaciers. Many mountians used to be flat earth or underwater. Thats why you can find the seashells.
3) And? You need more than one experiement. Also, those scientists where not observing evolution. Evolution takes thousands of years or more. Also, you can't expect flys to gain more traits in a controlled environment where they need fewer traits to survive.
4) Nope.
5) Yes, the universe is God's creation. Does that mean evolution cannot occur?
6) Pretty good considering that God created the universe.
7) No, believing in God is perfectly fine. Not believing in evolution is the crazy part.

bsbllplayr216 · Sep 19, 2006

NetDoc said:
So is a cake, but it evolved out of flour and milk and a lot of heat!

who put those ingredients together? some one had to. You can't just put them on the counter and then they will become a cake!

Sapiens · Nov 6, 2014

JesusIsTheWay said:
Here's a couple points I want to make.

1.) God created Adam and Eve mature, and also the rest of the world. It did not "mature" from eggs, seeds, ect, but was created fully "mature".

Unsupported claim.

JesusIsTheWay said:
2.) The flood would explain the underwater elements on mountops and the large buildup of sediments on the Earth's crust.

There are much more reasonable natural explanations that you've not dismissed.

JesusIsTheWay said:
3.) There was a fruitfly experiment done awhile ago (I think it was in London) to observe the "evolution" of the frutifly. Well the expierment ended up with the fruitfly actually losing traits and not gaining or evolving the slightest bit.

Evolution in a change in gene frequency which seems to have occured.

JesusIsTheWay said:
4.) The complex design of our minds and bodies are proof of creation.

Unsupported claim.

JesusIsTheWay said:
5.) Take a good look at the world around you, God's creation? or not?

Not.

JesusIsTheWay said:
6.) Also explain the chances that the solar system ended up in the perfection that it did. And the fact the that life can be supported on Earth is incredible, what's the chances of that?

A rather ignorant tautology since we are here..

JesusIsTheWay said:
7.) How much sense does this make: "nothing times nothing equals everything". Last time I checked 0x0=0 not anything else. And believing in God is crazy?

Some food for thought.
Have a good day/night
- David

Food for thought? On that sort of diet anyone with a brain would starve to death.

NulliuSINverba · Nov 7, 2014

JesusIsTheWay said:
Here's a couple points I want to make.

1.) God created Adam and Eve mature

Where in the Christian bible does it say that, exactly?

Even if we grant that Adam and Eve were created physically mature, the fact that God hadn't bothered to teach them the difference between right from wrong makes it very difficult to consider them emotionally mature. They were like children in that respect.

and also the rest of the world.

Could you please explain the difference(s) between a "mature" created world and an "immature" created world?

It did not "mature" from eggs, seeds, ect, but was created fully "mature".

And God ended his creation on the seventh day, correct? So every disease that requires a human host was present and accounted for ... and Adam and Eve must have been infected with all of them. Right?

2.) The flood would explain the underwater elements on mountops and the large buildup of sediments on the Earth's crust.

Plate tectonics and erosion each do a far better job of explaining all of that ... and neither of them requires magical flim-flammery.

3.) There was a fruitfly experiment done awhile ago (I think it was in London) to observe the "evolution" of the frutifly. Well the expierment ended up with the fruitfly actually losing traits and not gaining or evolving the slightest bit.

Could you please cite the study or provide a link?

Meanwhile, there's an E.coli experiment that's ongoing which indicates that evolution is demonstrable.

They've surpassed 50,000 generations. It's pretty fascinating.

4.) The complex design of our minds and bodies are proof of creation.

How do you know that our minds and bodies are complex? Compared to what? Isn't simplicity the hallmark of good design? Are you suggesting that our minds and bodies are like Rube Goldberg devices?

5.) Take a good look at the world around you, God's creation? or not?

I'm opting for "or not" if that's the best argument you can come up with.

6.) Also explain the chances that the solar system ended up in the perfection that it did. And the fact the that life can be supported on Earth is incredible, what's the chances of that?

The odds are irrelevant. We're here.

If you won the lottery, would you shred the winning ticket because the odds were just too incredible?

7.) How much sense does this make: "nothing times nothing equals everything". Last time I checked 0x0=0 not anything else. And believing in God is crazy?

Wait. Haven't you assumed that everything started from nothing?

Sapiens · Nov 7, 2014

SportyAngel2oo6 said:
Microevolution is a proven fact and is seen daily while macroevolution isnt because it has no evidence.

Jessica

The reality is that there is so much evidence to support macro-evolution that it is the accepted normal for all of science. The only position to it are people with preconceived notion that macro-evolution clearly disprove. Here is interesting thought experiment:

JerryL · Nov 7, 2014

JesusIsTheWay said:
1.) God created Adam and Eve mature, and also the rest of the world. It did not "mature" from eggs, seeds, ect, but was created fully "mature".

2.) The flood would explain the underwater elements on mountops and the large buildup of sediments on the Earth's crust.

3.) There was a fruitfly experiment done awhile ago (I think it was in London) to observe the "evolution" of the frutifly. Well the expierment ended up with the fruitfly actually losing traits and not gaining or evolving the slightest bit.

4.) The complex design of our minds and bodies are proof of creation.

5.) Take a good look at the world around you, God's creation? or not?

6.) Also explain the chances that the solar system ended up in the perfection that it did. And the fact the that life can be supported on Earth is incredible, what's the chances of that?

7.) How much sense does this make: "nothing times nothing equals everything". Last time I checked 0x0=0 not anything else. And believing in God is crazy?

I'm going to be repetitive with some other posts but.

1) That's far from clear, but I'll just assume you are correct for the sake of the argument.
2) Not really. A flood would far better explain collections in low-lying areas. The very non-random distribution is a contra-indicator as well.
3) Link? Even if I assume: so what?
4) Nope.
5) Not.
6) 100% (there may also be life on s couple of moons out here. There's a good chance there was once life on Mars.
7) About as much sense as your post in general.

Little something to think about...

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