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resurrection

S-word

Well-Known Member
S-word...I have this concerning the disciple who fled naked and will send more on the beloved one as time permits. I've been busy with grandkids.
John 18:15 mentions a disciple known to the high priest. Is this the same disciple who earlier fled “naked,” as reported at Mark 14:51, 52? No, it seems that the person known to the high priest was the apostle John, whereas it was the disciple Mark who fled “naked.” Taking these accounts in time sequence, we start at the garden of Gethsemane. The apostles reacted in fear when Jesus Christ was arrested. “They all abandoned him and fled.” The very next verse in Mark’s account draws a contrast: “But a certain young man wearing a fine linen garment over his naked body began to follow him nearby; and they tried to seize him, but he left his linen garment behind and got away naked.”—Mark 14:50-52.

Thus, the initial response of the 11 apostles is contrasted with that of this unnamed disciple, so it is logical to conclude that he was not one of the apostles. This incident is recorded only in the Gospel written by the early disciple John Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. Hence, there is reason to hold that Mark was the “certain young man” who began to follow the arrested Jesus but who fled without his covering garment when the mob tried to apprehend him too.—Acts 4:36; 12:12, 25; Colossians 4:10.

My dear starlite, the disciple that was known to the High priest, as referred to in John 18: 15, I believe is Judas, who met secretly with him earlier on to receive his betrayal payment. If you believe that John, who was surnamed 'Mark,' which name means 'Hammer,' who I believe is none other than the beloved disciple, John the son of Zebadee, whom Jesus had surnamed 'Son of Thunder,' then I beleive that you have hit the nail on the head in identifying the young man who lost his robe and ran off naked into the night.


Myself, I don't believe for one moment that he would have ran off, got dressed and returned to where Jesus was being questioned. As to your inferrence that John, who was surnamed 'Hammer' or rather 'Mark,' is the author of the gospel of Mark, I think that you will find that the gospel writter is Mark the son of Peter, who administered to Paul while he was a prisoner in Rome, for Paul wasn't on real good terms with John surnamed Mark; it was over John 'Mark' that Paul broke up with Joseph the Levite from Cyprus who was surnamed Barnabus and was the half brother to Mary the mother or adopted mother of John who was surnamed 'Mark.'
 
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crystalonyx

Well-Known Member
Could somebody explain to me why the physical body of Jesus was resurected when it was not nessessary ?

It was quite necessary for the literalist interpretation of Christianity, competing for believers with other "spiritual-only" Christ cults at the time.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
See what I've gone and started...??

I made a statement of who was present at the supposed crucifixion and now it's spun off into this whole separate debate.

I'm sorry...:faint:

OK...back on track.....

What "evidence" is there to show that the biblical Yeshua resurrected spiritually?

I say "resurrected" loosely for those of you who believe he did resurrect.

My position is that when the biblical Yeshua presented himself (came out from hiding from his captures) to his disciples and he was fully alive. There was no reason for a physical resurrection because from what I can tell the biblical Yeshua simply passed on information then he left.

If he was able to speak to Paul from the heavens while Paul was on the road (if you believe Paul's claim) then a physical ressurection is not needed in order to pass on information. As he greeted the disciples and others he was hungry and asked for food and they fed him. If he can conqure death why not hunger? I also don't gather from the jewish perspective that physical ressurection is something they believe in or teach rather ressurection is to be a spiritual event. The biblical Yeshua explicitly informs his followers he is no spirit and appears to go further to prove it to them. After this proof did either of then still believe him to have spiritually ressurected or is this idea from the church (later interpreters)?
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Yeshua is supposed to have eaten with his disciples, as well as offered Thomas the chance to feel the holes in his hands and feet.

Perhaps it is not that he couldn't 'conquer' hunger, but he ate for the exact reason that we discuss right now - to show that it was a physical, as opposed to spiritual, resurrection?
 

starlite

Texasgirl
I am convinced that John was the young disciple who ran away naked after his linen robe was torn, when the temple guards tried to arrest him with Jesus, and that John whom Jesus had surnamed 'Son of Thunder' and John who was surnamed 'Mark,' which means "Hammer,' are one and the same person, and Mary the mother of Jesus is one and the same as Mary the half sister of Joseph the Levite from Cyprus, who was surnamed Barnabus, and who was the mother of John who was surnamed 'Hammer.' The graves of Mary and John who travelled to the land of Pamphillia with Joseph the Levite, can still be visited in the town of Ephesus to this day.


Although I have no recollection of ever having read in the Bible, where the name 'John' is directly associated with 'the beloved disciple,' or where the beloved disciple is actually identified as John the son of Zebadee, perhaps you may help me in this regard, John 21: 20-24, will be the closest confirmation that I beleive that you will find, thank you starlite.

I have reason to believe that by looking at context and the internal evidence we can conclude that John, the apostle, enjoyed a very close relationship with Jesus. He was the one whom Jesus used to love, as referred to in his Gospel. At the final evening meal, John reclined next to Jesus, and it was he to whom Jesus, when on the torture stake, gave the special privilege of taking Jesus' mother, Mary, into his own home and caring for her as if she were his own mother-John 13:23; 19:25-27; 20:2; 21:20.

This mutual bond between Jesus and John did not arise out of physical attraction. Nor was John a sentimentalist, though it is true he spoke much about love. Actually, true and sincere Godlike love is a strong, pure quality, closely linked with loyalty. In all his writings, John manifested a strong love and loyalty toward Jesus Christ. Jesus, who knew what was in man, greatly appreciated this quality in John, and so a deep attachment was formed between them.

A unique feature of John's Gospel is his never referring to himself by name. Whenever he mentions John he means John the Baptist. The other three Gospel writers logically distinguish between the two Johns, but not he apostle John. When he refers to himself it is either as one of the sons of Zebedee, his father, or as the disciple whom Jesus loved-John 21:2, 20. This same characteristic of not naming himself is evident at John 18:15,16. Furthermore, John and Peter are linked in the account at John 20:2-8. These indications suggest that the apostle John was that disciple [who] was known to the high priest. The Bible does not provide background information as to how the Galilean apostle (John) might have got to know, and got to be known by, the high priest. But his being known by the household of the high priest enabled John to get past the doorkeeper into the courtyard and to gain entrance for Peter also.

All four of the Gospel writers--Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John--record that on the night of Jesus' arrest, one of his disciples drew a sword and struck a slave of the high priest, taking off the man's ear. Only the Gospel of John reports a seemingly unnecessary detail: "The name of the slave was Malchus." (John 18:10,26) Why does John alone give the man's name? A few verses later the account provides a minor fact not stated anywhere else: He "was known to the high priest." He was also known to the high priest's household; the servants were acquainted with him, and he with them. (John 18:15,16) It was only natural, then, that John mention the injured man's name, whereas the other Gospel writer, to whom the man was a stranger, do not.
 

S-word

Well-Known Member
I have reason to believe that by looking at context and the internal evidence we can conclude that John, the apostle, enjoyed a very close relationship with Jesus. He was the one whom Jesus used to love, as referred to in his Gospel. At the final evening meal, John reclined next to Jesus, and it was he to whom Jesus, when on the torture stake, gave the special privilege of taking Jesus' mother, Mary, into his own home and caring for her as if she were his own mother-John 13:23; 19:25-27; 20:2; 21:20.

This mutual bond between Jesus and John did not arise out of physical attraction. Nor was John a sentimentalist, though it is true he spoke much about love. Actually, true and sincere Godlike love is a strong, pure quality, closely linked with loyalty. In all his writings, John manifested a strong love and loyalty toward Jesus Christ. Jesus, who knew what was in man, greatly appreciated this quality in John, and so a deep attachment was formed between them.

A unique feature of John's Gospel is his never referring to himself by name. Whenever he mentions John he means John the Baptist. The other three Gospel writers logically distinguish between the two Johns, but not he apostle John. When he refers to himself it is either as one of the sons of Zebedee, his father, or as the disciple whom Jesus loved-John 21:2, 20. This same characteristic of not naming himself is evident at John 18:15,16. Furthermore, John and Peter are linked in the account at John 20:2-8. These indications suggest that the apostle John was that disciple [who] was known to the high priest. The Bible does not provide background information as to how the Galilean apostle (John) might have got to know, and got to be known by, the high priest. But his being known by the household of the high priest enabled John to get past the doorkeeper into the courtyard and to gain entrance for Peter also.

All four of the Gospel writers--Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John--record that on the night of Jesus' arrest, one of his disciples drew a sword and struck a slave of the high priest, taking off the man's ear. Only the Gospel of John reports a seemingly unnecessary detail: "The name of the slave was Malchus." (John 18:10,26) Why does John alone give the man's name? A few verses later the account provides a minor fact not stated anywhere else: He "was known to the high priest." He was also known to the high priest's household; the servants were acquainted with him, and he with them. (John 18:15,16) It was only natural, then, that John mention the injured man's name, whereas the other Gospel writer, to whom the man was a stranger, do not.


As I have already said in my previous posts in this thread, I am totally convinced that John is the beloved disciple of Jesus, but nowhere, in the Bible is John said to be the beloved, nor is it anywhere said that the beloved is John, You have taken this from John 13: 23, (At the final evening meal, John reclined next to Jesus,) but you are putting words into the Bible that are not there, this verse states that the beloved disciple reclined next to Jesus, but nowhere is he identified as John.

When you say ‘He,’ you are not referring to John here, but to the beloved, (and it was ‘He’ to whom Jesus, when on the torture stake, gave the special privilege of taking Jesus' mother, Mary, into his own home and caring for her as if she were his own mother) John 19: 25-27, “Jesus saw his mother and the disciple he loved,”-- but the disciple he loved is not identified as John. The Gospel of John was not actually written by John, but by a group transcribing from his written accounts. I believe that John was the only disciple that is recorded as having, been at the cross with the mother of Jesus, ‘Mary the wife of Cleophas and her sister, sister in law or half sister, Mary Magdalene, even though he is not mentioned by name, because the scribes who recounted the words of John, say in John 19: 35, when referring to the blood and water that ran from the wound in the side of Jesus (The one who saw this happen has spoken of it, so that you also may believe. What he said was true, and he knows that he speaks the truth.)

And again, it is made abundantly clear that the one referred to by the scribe, or rather scribes who actually wrote the Gospel of John, knew that John was the beloved disciple of Jesus when they referred to the one that Jesus had said to Peter in reference to the disciple that he loved, (“If I want that he should live until I come, what is that to you?”) and then, they go on to say in John, 21: 24, “He is the disciple who spoke these things, the one who also wrote them down; and ‘we,’ (Those who transcribed the words of John) know that what he said is true.”

At the last supper that Jesus had with his disciples on the night before the Passover Lambs were to be slaughtered, Jesus sent Judas to do what had to be done in accordance to the plan of God, and Judas went and gathered the Temple guards and the Roman soldiers and took them to the Garden where he identified Jesus as the one that the Jewish authorities wanted arrested, undoubtedly he would have returned with the group to collect his reward, and as Peter is the only other disciple that was there in the courtyard with Judas, I am convinced, that John was definitely not present there, but would have been with the mother of Jesus comforting her in the day that the sword of suffering pierced her heart.
 

Berachiah Ben Yisrael

Active Member
I just wonder how we can contemplate Yahshua loving one disciple more than another. I would have thought that he would have loved them all that followed his Fathers word and wouldn’t have played favorites. To say “beloved disciple” wasn’t they all beloved? Most say that was the biggest thing in the entirety of the NT that it was said that “you shall love each other as I have loved you”.

Not meaning to ruffle any feathers here but just offering an observation. And I might have missed something as it is not impossible for me to do. :)
 
I Corinthians 15: 14, "If Christ has not been raised from death, we have nothing to preach and you have nothing to believe. more than that, we are shown to be lying about God, because we said that he raised Christ from death. For if the dead are not raised, then neither has Christ been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is a delusion and you are still lost in your sins.

The faith of a Christian, rests entirely on the resurrection, For 'The Son of Man,' the spirit that develops in the body of Mankind, came down into his dead past to pay the death penality of the body in which He developed, in which he had gained all the knowledge, wisdom and insight needed by the Heir to the throne of the Most High.

If you are saying that you do not believe that Christ was raised from death, you are calling the disciples liers, and if you do not believe in the resurrection of the dead, then eat, drink and be Merry mate, do what ever your heart desires, for tomorrow you will enter the grave, from which you will never rise.
I said it was not provable! I never said I didn't believe! Gosh!!!!PLus, I don't give a damn what Pauls says!
He was a sexist!
This is provable!
Do you believe that the bible is God's infallible inerrant word?
 

S-word

Well-Known Member
I just wonder how we can contemplate Yahshua loving one disciple more than another. I would have thought that he would have loved them all that followed his Fathers word and wouldn’t have played favorites. To say “beloved disciple” wasn’t they all beloved? Most say that was the biggest thing in the entirety of the NT that it was said that “you shall love each other as I have loved you”.

Not meaning to ruffle any feathers here but just offering an observation. And I might have missed something as it is not impossible for me to do. :)


All the disciples were loved old mate, but if it is written that Jesus loved one disciple above the rest, and said of Him, "What if I should want him to live until I come," what is that to you or I?
 

Berachiah Ben Yisrael

Active Member
All the disciples were loved old mate, but if it is written that Jesus loved one disciple above the rest, and said of Him, "What if I should want him to live until I come," what is that to you or I?

My brain is mush right now so can you show me where this is written where he stated that he loved one more than another please? :areyoucra <--- This is how I feel right now. lol :D
 

S-word

Well-Known Member
I said it was not provable! I never said I didn't believe! Gosh!!!!PLus, I don't give a damn what Pauls says!
He was a sexist!
This is provable!
Do you believe that the bible is God's infallible inerrant word?

What is an historian other than one who records the events of their time, take away the books in which someone recorded that Cleopatra, who is said to have commited suicide, had bore a set of twins to Mark Antony, and had previousely bore a child to Caesar, or that Caesar was murdered in the Senate by a group of republicans on March 15 44 B.C., then none of this is provable.

Prove to me your statement that Paul was a sexist without quoting the words of he who said that Jesus was resurrected. The fact that you believe 'Paul' to be a sexist, proves to me beyond doubt that you believe the words spoken by Paul.
 
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S-word

Well-Known Member
My brain is mush right now so can you show me where this is written where he stated that he loved one more than another please? :areyoucra <--- This is how I feel right now. lol :D

I can't show you where Jesus actually states that he loved one disciple obove the others, but I can show you where it is said in the Bible. Why? Dontcha believe the Bible?
 

S-word

Well-Known Member
Quote....ThuggishSplicer
Do you believe that the bible is God's infallible inerrant word?


The Bread=words that came down from the future, have been so corrupted by the yeast that has been added, it is impossible to believe the Bible in it's entirety as it is now written, but as I do not follow the written letter of the law, but the spirit of the law, which allows me the freedom to do whatever I choose, as long as I do it out of love for my fellow man. I also believe the spirit of what is recorded in the holy scriptures; and anyone who is led through the manuscripts of God by the spirit that he has sent into the world, are well aware of the yeast of the Pharisees.

Why? do you have some great proof of errors that have been added in translation or erroneous interpretations that most here, have not already heard? If so, then start a thread and if it is of interest to anyone, they will visit your site and you may be able to convince them of where you believe that the particular translation from which you quote at the time, is in error.
 
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Berachiah Ben Yisrael

Active Member
I can't show you where Jesus actually states that he loved one disciple obove the others, but I can show you where it is said in the Bible. Why? Dontcha believe the Bible?

I can see a "why" but I just don't see that it "is". So are we to say that because there is a "why" then there must be an "is"? :confused:
 

S-word

Well-Known Member
I can see a "why" but I just don't see that it "is". So are we to say that because there is a "why" then there must be an "is"? :confused:

You've lost me somewhere along the track there mate, I'm not too sure what you are on about. When you say "Why," Why what? 'Why, dontcha belive the Bible?' You then go on to say that, 'there must be an "IS."' The only "IS' that I can see in referrence to my post, is the fact that the Bible "IS" correct in stating that Jesus loved one disciple above the rest.

Speaking from my own experience, I love all my family and friends, but in different degrees of love, there are certain members of the group, whose company I prefer over others, but that doesn't mean that I don't love the company of all the group.
 
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Berachiah Ben Yisrael

Active Member
You've lost me somewhere along the track there mate, I'm not too sure what you are on about. When you say "Why," Why what? 'Why, dontcha belive the Bible?' You the go on to say that, 'there must be an "IS."' The only "IS' that I can see in referrence to my post, is the fact that the Bible "IS" correct in stating that Jesus loved one disciple above the rest.

Speaking from my own experience, I love all my family and friends, but in different degrees of love, there are certain members of the group. whose company I prefer over others, but that doesn't mean that I don't love the company of all the group.

Sorry. My reference to “why” that I said I saw was the same reference that you made of the “Why”. You said that you could show me why Yahshua could love one over another. I said I could see the “why” but I just couldn’t see the “is”. I have explained what I meant about the “why” and now the “is”. The “is” is where it states that he did. I can’t see it because I can’t find it and you said “I can't show you where Jesus actually states that he loved one disciple above the others” but you went on to say “but I can show you where it is said in the Bible. Why?”

Oops, hehehehehe

See I told you age gets to us all. LOL

I said earlier that I was having trouble finding it. I mistook the “why” in the last statement as meaning something other than asking me “why”. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

O.k. I give. Where is it in scripture? J
 

S-word

Well-Known Member
I said earlier that I was having trouble finding it. I mistook the &#8220;why&#8221; in the last statement as meaning something other than asking me &#8220;why&#8221;. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

O.k. I give. Where is it in scripture? J



When you say, "Where is "IT" in Scripture, by 'IT,' I am assuming that you are referring to where the Bible refers to the disciple that Jesus loved, as distinct from the other disciples.

John 21: 7, &#8220;Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter. It is the Lord. Now when Peter heard it was the Lord, he wrapped his fishing garment around him, for he was naked. I think that should put paid to any who might suggest that the disciple that Jesus loved was Mary Magdalene, I don&#8217;t think Peter would stand around naked in the boat if she were there also, do you?

John 13: 23, &#8216;One of the disciples, the one whom Jesus loved,&#8217; (Which disciple is being referred to here?) O yes, that disciple whom Jesus loved.

John 21: 20, &#8216;Peter turned around and saw behind him that other disciple, whom Jesus loved--- the one who had leaned close to Jesus at their last meal together.&#8217; Verse 24, &#8216;He is the disciple who spoke these things (That are recorded in the Gospel of John), the one who wrote them down; and &#8216;WE,&#8217; (the transcribers of his words) know that what he said is true.&#8217;

The Gospel of John is the only book in which you will find the account of the blood and the water flowing from the wound in the side of Jesus, 19: 35, &#8220;The one who saw this happen has spoken of it, so that you may also believe. What he said is true, and he knows he speaks the truth.&#8221;
I think that this is enough to verify that the only recorded disciple at the crucifixion of Jesus was that disciple whom Jesus loved, and that he was John whom Jesus had surnamed, &#8216;Son of Thunder.&#8221;
 

starlite

Texasgirl
You've lost me somewhere along the track there mate, I'm not too sure what you are on about. When you say "Why," Why what? 'Why, dontcha belive the Bible?' You the go on to say that, 'there must be an "IS."' The only "IS' that I can see in referrence to my post, is the fact that the Bible "IS" correct in stating that Jesus loved one disciple above the rest.

Speaking from my own experience, I love all my family and friends, but in different degrees of love, there are certain members of the group. whose company I prefer over others, but that doesn't mean that I don't love the company of all the group.


Good illustration because that's the point....there are different degrees of love.
 
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