Does evolution cause you problems?

Majikthise said:

Evolution of technology in the past 100 years or so has blown away the efforts man has put forth for thousands of years.Why couldn't this also aply to biological evolution?

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Good point!!

I think its apples and oranges though,... we have "control" over technological advances by our very hand, and Biological evolution is not in our hands at all, directly. I suppose the choices we make, as in the climate we chose to live in and the challenges we face willingly for whatever reason, over and over and over, will eventually help adapt us better for that situation. But I think its hella different then building a television.

DB

Dinogrrl said:

Where did you here that we evolved from early humans that got trapped on islands?

Actually, recently, along with the 'hobbit people' that have been found (not at the same place, but around the same time as those discoveries), there have been 'Goliaths' found. And evidence to say that there were as many as three types of humans living together in Africa /at the same time/.
Anyway, some scientists are beginning to believe that we evolved not from the small 'Lucy' type of human, but rather, the 'Goliath' type.

There was a special on...Discovery? not too long ago about this. Should be showing again some time soon :}.

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Hello grrl!!

With all due respect, coastal isolation, doesn't nessesarily mean "island". Not that thats neither here nor there Yeah, I heard about that, I'm very curious about it, and I would absolutley welcome new finds and evidence, as I've stated, I don't think the puzzle is solved yet, though I do believe we evolved. I just have a problem with the current belief that we evolved from Erectus directly, and this new evidence proves, hopefully that "something is missing"

i look forward to it, actually, im gonna do a search now, hehe

DB

Evolution takes place in both body and mind.And on that note,I feel something evolving in my gut.Gotta go!

Ah, I must have misread your post. Whoops >>;.

I believe the reason so many hardline Christians have a problem with evolution is the idea of perfect creation. If God made man in his image, why would man evolve? You can speculate all you like, though the Bible doesn't really talk about evolution so much.

Fatmop said:

I believe the reason so many hardline Christians have a problem with evolution is the idea of perfect creation. If God made man in his image, why would man evolve? You can speculate all you like, though the Bible doesn't really talk about evolution so much.

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This is true, especially of the literalists. They tend to feel a non-literal interpretation destroys the authority of Scripture and the plan of salvation. Those of us on the other side feel no such pressure .

Well, ok. Why don't you feel that the Bible should be interpreted literally?

Something i've been discussing with my rabbi is the concept of evolution in a traditional jewish context...
there are those who are, like some christians, literalists who believe the Torah and it's writings on creation are true word for word...
however some, in light of modern science's discoveries, have gone about things differently...one of the most interesting, and one i'd like to explore if i ever get the time to add to my reading list, are the ideas of looking to Kaballah and jewish mysticism to resolve the issues between the Torah and Evolution.
Kaballah has usually held the line that there is more going on in the story than what is written on the page.

Fatmop said:

I believe the reason so many hardline Christians have a problem with evolution is the idea of perfect creation. If God made man in his image, why would man evolve? You can speculate all you like, though the Bible doesn't really talk about evolution so much.

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That right there is an excellent point!! well put. I'd have to agree. Religion was created, I beleive to control and unruly people, so as to give hope and some ind of consequence to their actions....I do think we are civilized enough to do without it now.

That I'm not so sure of. States like the U.S.S.R. and China have tried to abolish it in some form or other, but people were so attached that it caused some pretty massive problems. We would have to free ourselves of religion, not have a leader force it on us. (I mean, many atheists positivelt rant about things like 'under god' in the pledge, etc... forced systems of belief or non-belief will never change anyone's minds.)

Evolution does cause problems. It causes me to think.

It doesn't cause me a problem, but I don't believe in it totally. The main reason is due to the lack of a missing link. Any missing link, not just the monkey to man one. I think if evolution slowly happened over millions of years; yet you still have basic and advanced species existing together, wouldn't you have every variation of progress existing as well? I don't know of one animal or whatever that bridges the gap between any species. And yes I know about adaptaion and I believe in it. But no matter how many times you cross breed dogs, you still have dogs. Different sizes, shapes and temperments but ; dogs.

[qoute]It doesn't cause me a problem, but I don't believe in it totally. The main reason is due to the lack of a missing link. Any missing link, not just the monkey to man one.[/quote] Tautology... any present link would, by definition, no be missing.

Are you claiming there are no links between A and C? That's just absurd. I'll give you an easy one: your mother is the link between your grandmother and yourself.

I think if evolution slowly happened over millions of years;

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It didn't. It happens every day.

yet you still have basic and advanced species existing together,

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There's no such thing as "basic and advanced". Aomebas are just as evolved as homo sapiens.

wouldn't you have every variation of progress existing as well?

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No.

don't know of one animal or whatever that bridges the gap between any species.

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Appeal to ignorance... but if you interested in establishing speciation, allow me to offer the following examples:

Seedless grapes (pretty self-explanitory)

Salmon (http://www.umass.edu/newsoffice/arc...1900salmon.html)

Goatsbeard ("Three species of wildflowers called goatsbeards were introduced to the United States from Europe shortly after the turn of the century. Within a few decades their populations expanded and began to encounter one another in the American West. Whenever mixed populations occurred, the specied interbred (hybridizing) producing sterile hybrid offspring. Suddenly, in the late forties two new species of goatsbeard appeared near Pullman, Washington. Although the new species were similar in appearance to the hybrids, they produced fertile offspring. The evolutionary process had created a separate species that could reproduce but not mate with the goatsbeard plants from which it had evolved.")

and Mosquitos (having a little trouble trakcing down that one, it was on ABC news's site recently (2-3 months ago) in an article on the effects of global warming. Let me offer some more to make up for it.

Two strains of Drosophila paulistorum developed hybrid sterility of male offspring between 1958 and 1963. Artificial selection induced strong intra-strain mating preferences. (Test for speciation: sterile offspring and lack of interbreeding affinity.) Dobzhansky, Th., and O. Pavlovsky, 1971. "An experimentally created incipient species of Drosophila", Nature 23:289-292

Rapid speciation of the Faeroe Island house mouse, which occurred in less than 250 years after man brought the creature to the island. (Test for speciation in this case is based on morphology. It is unlikely that forced breeding experiments have been performed with the parent stock.) Stanley, S., 1979. Macroevolution: Pattern and Process, San Francisco, W.H. Freeman and Company. p. 41

Formation of five new species of cichlid fishes which formed since they were isolated less than 4000 years ago from the parent stock, Lake Nagubago. (Test for speciation in this case is by morphology and lack of natural interbreeding. These fish have complex mating rituals and different coloration. While it might be possible that different species are inter-fertile, they cannot be convinced to mate.) Mayr, E., 1970. Populations, Species, and Evolution, Massachusetts, Harvard University Press. p. 348

page 22 of the February, 1989 issue of Scientific American. It's called "A Breed Apart." It tells about studies conducted on a fruit fly, Rhagoletis pomonella, that is a parasite of the hawthorn tree and its fruit, which is commonly called the thorn apple. About 150 years ago, some of these flies began infesting apple trees, as well. The flies feed an breed on either apples or thorn apples, but not both. There's enough evidence to convince the scientific investigators that they're witnessing speciation in action. Note that some of the investigators set out to prove that speciation was not happening; the evidence convinced them otherwise.

And yes I know about adaptaion and I believe in it. But no matter how many times you cross breed dogs, you still have dogs. Different sizes, shapes and temperments but ; dogs.

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"Dogs" isn't a species. What genetic change would it take to not be "dog" to you? Is a wolf a dog? Is a bear a dog? Why or why not?

Seriousy: Give me a bright-line test.

Dentonz said:

The main reason is due to the lack of a missing link. Any missing link, not just the monkey to man one.

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Actually, the "missing link" is a myth--it doesn't exist for any species. Evolution is a gradual process--there are hundreds, maybe even thousands of evolutionary steps between apes and humans. The "missing link theory" basically says that there was one step: apes to missing links to humans.

yet you still have basic and advanced species existing together, wouldn't you have every variation of progress existing as well?

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It is certainly possible, but not as plausible as you might think. The reason why a species evolves is because it cannot adequately survive in its environment without adapting and changing. Therefore, the reason why numerous variations of a particular species do not usually co-exist is because most of the earlier variations have died out. The reason why they had to evolve into a new variation in the first place was because they were not able to adequately survive as they were. Organisms don't just evolve for the hell of it, after all.

But no matter how many times you cross breed dogs, you still have dogs. Different sizes, shapes and temperments but ; dogs.

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First, I would caution you against using a domesticated animal as a comparison. In domesticated animals, such as dogs, horses, cows, and even humans themselves, evolution is more or less at a stand-still. American Thoroughbreds are notorious for having weak feet--they require regular shoeing, or else their feet will bruise, (in most cases), and they will come up lame. Mustangs, on the other hand, have very tough feet. Why is this? If a wild mustang has weak feet and comes up lame as a result, it will not be able to run with the herd, and will be left to die. Consequently, it will not be able to pass on its genes--only the mustangs strong enough to keep up with the herd will be able to survive to pass on their genes. In domesticated horses, however, there is no need for them to fend for themselves or keep up with any herd. If a domesticated horse has a health problem, its owners fix it. Domesticated horses get blankets in the wintertime, and square meals of grain every day. Even a domesticated horse with inferior instincts or physical advantage can be bred to pass on their inferior traits.

I feel like I'm rambling a bit here, so let me state my second point: Even with dogs, speciation is occuring. Now, "speciation" is defined when two animals cannot produce live, fertile offspring together. This is the truth for horses and donkey's, and also for some dogs. If you breed a small female to a large male, the female might not be able to handle the large litter, and sometimes both mother and babies will perish. This is a legitiate example of speciation.

you're not Rambling ceridwen; I tried to post in that vein, but I could not explain it as well as you. Good post.

In answer to the OP; "not to me personally, but my sons may disagree"

Scott1 said:

I don't have a problem with it...... most of the arguments are way over my head, but from the little I've learned here about evolution.... I don't believe it is contradictory to my theology.

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It hardly matters which theology you follow or not Evolution is prven beyong any doubt; the fossil record is there, the geological record is there, and I can only think that anyone who does not believe the Earth's long history is somewhat blinkered by their personal and irrational beliefs. You cannot argue with empiral science on the grounds of theological arguements, there is only one winner...Science.

Cheers

K

Nope, and I'm a Theist.

RearingArabian said:

Evolution does cause problems. It causes me to think.

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That is a sentence that just had to be quoted.

By thinking do you mean it causes you to question? How is this a problem?

Would love for you to expand on this, if you don't mind. I am honestly fascinated.

B.

For those people who are theist and said they have no problem with evolution and their theistic beliefs how do you reconcile the notion of a soul?

Here is a thread that is more specific about it.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11507

That is kind of an interesting question, Rob. At what point on the evolutionary ladder did homo sapiens develop the soul - or did all hominids have souls, and all their precursors, and etc?