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The Crucifix

No*s

Captain Obvious
Dr. Khan said:
people who carry or need crosses to remember Jesus? If you forget Jesus you must not be saved. Jesus is with me at all times. His thoughts are my thoughts and his ways are my ways also. I learned his ways by keeping my eyes on his word at all times. Every thought is in subjection to Jesus. He is here, with in my body. It is by his word. It's richly abundant here and is my guide. :woohoo: I'ts that way because I wanted it to be; because I saw so many religions in the world the day I got filled with the Holy Ghost I knew then by my weakness of character that I would need Jesus in strong fashion to overcome all the lies which men live by everyday. As a young christian John 14-16and 17 demanded a lot of my attention.
and in those days when Jim Jones led a multitude to commit suicide I said to myself they should haver read the bible. It warns of you of people like that. This is why the apotles prayed that the believers (their fruit ) be filled with the Holy Ghost. And So Do I.

Dr. Khan,

Do you wish to continue to ignore every objection people make to your arguements, and continue to offer distorted conceptions of people who venerate the cross? If so, there's little more I can say to you, but I would hope you weren't the kind of person to do those things. However, if you are, this will be the last time I post a rebuttle to you.

People who venerate the cross don't forget or don't lack reverence for Christ away from wearing the symbol. Would you say the New Martyrs who were clubbed, beaten, whipped, and killed by Communists for Christ bore no love for him? They very often didn't get to keep their crosses with them, so they didn't need them to remind love Christ, though they would use them that way. Still, they went to their deaths.

To say that we need the cross to remember Christ is a gross distortion of our words that it helps us remember.
 

Dr. Khan

Member
martha said:
I truly thank you for praying that all, especially the lost christians, will be filled with the Holy Spirit. I do not feel lost, though. Hold on there brother, I am sure you can quote scripture till I'm blue in the face about how I misinterpret God and His love. Please put that thought on hold.

Do you purport to think that God does not understand His children? Do you think He loves people of your way of beliving more? He loves us all brother Khan. He wants us to know Him. Jesus was kind and understanding and filled with compassion for those who did not understand Him or the Father.

I truly do believe that you are sure and steady in your interpretation of the Word. But for some reason you tend to be like the preachers of old who would try to present God in the light of a Fire and Brimstone God, a god of anger and revenge.
I do not see God like that, He created us and loves us. God doesn't make junk!. God's essence is love and forgiveness. The way you preach God, in my humble opinion, can only scare people. If you infuse fear into people about someone, why would they want to follow ?

It would be beneficial to all, if all Christians stopped trying so hard. The phrase "Walk the walk, don't talk the talk" comes to mind. If I show a Christ-like life and attitude, filled with the joy of my creator to my brothers and sisters, then surely they would be more inclined to wonder what all the happiness and joy was about. When we resort to finger pointing and condemnation, we can only harm the point. Do you really care about my personal eternity, or would you rather condemn my faith?

It is not the christians who are in error that I'm so much worried about as the billions of those out side who are watching you and your crosses and this is most severe that so many non believers use the image of the cross as a good luck charm; by having one your self you are in alignment with such who have murdered millions with the use of the cross. It is not my private interpretation of the scriptures that reveal the mark of the beast but the Lord's. I will show in my postings eventually that the scriptures back me up in my claims and I believe that you will in the end agree. My initiual interest is to show that the traditions picked up over generations have created a wall (a henderance) between God and church. [this is my main motivation :I have seen in Jesus that we have in us enough glory and power to persuade the world in its entirety that Jesus Christ is Lord. If you feel any pressure it is because you opinions and beliefs are more precious to you than 1billion muslims, whose idea of Christianity is wrong because of the crusades and the darkness that covered the earth in the 500ad to 800ad. I got a gusher in me and it wants to get out.
 

martha

Active Member
A gusher indeed, brother Khan. I ask you then, do you see no redeeming qualities in us? Do you see no Love of Jesus in us, dear brother?

I get upset when I see people using the cross as purely jewelry. I get upset when I see my brothers and sisters going up to receive communion, seemingly having absolutely no idea what they are about to receive. I get upset when I see my fellow believers chatting through the Holy Mass. But, I pray for their enlightenment.

You have talked the talk. I feel moved to ask you brother Khan, what do you do in your daily life to show people the love of God? I mean, just how do you convince a non-believer on a daily basis, to believe in the love of God and the promises of Christ? I am not being a wise guy, I want to understand you completely. Sometimes the words we speak don't convey our walk with Christ. So, If you please, tell me how you live your life.
 

Dr. Khan

Member
martha said:
A gusher indeed, brother Khan. I ask you then, do you see no redeeming qualities in us? Do you see no Love of Jesus in us, dear brother?

I get upset when I see people using the cross as purely jewelry. I get upset when I see my brothers and sisters going up to receive communion, seemingly having absolutely no idea what they are about to receive. I get upset when I see my fellow believers chatting through the Holy Mass. But, I pray for their enlightenment.

You have talked the talk. I feel moved to ask you brother Khan, what do you do in your daily life to show people the love of God? I mean, just how do you convince a non-believer on a daily basis, to believe in the love of God and the promises of Christ? I am not being a wise guy, I want to understand you completely. Sometimes the words we speak don't convey our walk with Christ. So, If you please, tell me how you live your life.
One day at a time looking to Jesus to lead me into the promised land. ha ha.
but really just that one day at a time. My life is a constant motion since 1989, even before then. I laid my life down in that year. I cannot go in to details except to say it cost me everything.... and I do mean everything. I am not crying because in the trial I find every thing that I have wanted. I live each day with the pearls which Jesus has given me. These pearls that Jesus spoke of allow me to live by faith not with hands.
 

Dr. Khan

Member
No*s said:
Dr. Khan,

Do you wish to continue to ignore every objection people make to your arguements, and continue to offer distorted conceptions of people who venerate the cross? If so, there's little more I can say to you, but I would hope you weren't the kind of person to do those things. However, if you are, this will be the last time I post a rebuttle to you.

People who venerate the cross don't forget or don't lack reverence for Christ away from wearing the symbol. Would you say the New Martyrs who were clubbed, beaten, whipped, and killed by Communists for Christ bore no love for him? They very often didn't get to keep their crosses with them, so they didn't need them to remind love Christ, though they would use them that way. Still, they went to their deaths.

To say that we need the cross to remember Christ is a gross distortion of our words that it helps us remember.



No's I'll get to answer you,but there is so much going on right now I can't keep up.
your answers require some thought. I'm not trying to win an arguement but to dislodge you from your position permanantly.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Dr. Khan said:
No's I'll get to answer you,but there is so much going on right now I can't keep up.
your answers require some thought. I'm not trying to win an arguement but to dislodge you from your position permanantly.

OK, then I'll wait. To dislodge me permanantly, you'll not only need to win, but to completely shred my beliefs beyond any recunstruction. :)
 

Dr. Khan

Member
No*s said:
OK, then I'll wait. To dislodge me permanantly, you'll not only need to win, but to completely shred my beliefs beyond any recunstruction. :)
i'm not interested in shredding your beliefs just enhancing them that you might consider what is Jesus position on the matter. I for one don't believe that we can persuade the world with the many different ideas which are contrary to sound doctrine. While we may be different in cultures and every thing Jesus came to make us the seed of Abraham that our blessing might touch every family. I wouldn't care about the cross except I believe that when we get rid of all of them we will them see how to remove the speck in the muslims eye. You see we got a big beam.

Many of us want to cling to the traditions of the past. I say well if they are ancored in the traditions of the apostles. I ask you which one of them ever use a sign or an image? Dosen't it usually mean that when the sons of Isreal departed from walking with their God that they would use images? and what not? remember Ackan's sin and how it harmed Isreal, he saving images inhis tent? when they went out to battle they had no idea that they were going to lose, they didn't think it was posible.

Do you think that any movement that takes in new cultures is not going to be changed and need adjustments? Don't we realign our cars wheels. If you think that the use of images and signs is not harmful you need to then consider the fact that your cross though it doesnt talk is saying something entirely different to that muslim or that agnostit or atheist or Indian or many who have been injured by the sign. The muslim might say to himself (crusader). There your cross spoke and you didn't even know what it said. Though it can't speak only lie.
 

Dr. Khan

Member
Let your tongue do all the work.

God made it so that it's your most valueable asset in the flesh.

BY THE WORD OF THE LORD WERE THE HEAVENS MADE AND ALL THE HOSTS OF THEM BY THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH.
 

The Black Whirlwind

Well-Known Member
when i see a cross, i think of all those jehovah's witnesses and catholics that badgered me to be a christian or i would go to hell. for me, the cross symbolizes evil.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Dr. Khan said:
i'm not interested in shredding your beliefs just enhancing them that you might consider what is Jesus position on the matter. I for one don't believe that we can persuade the world with the many different ideas which are contrary to sound doctrine. While we may be different in cultures and every thing Jesus came to make us the seed of Abraham that our blessing might touch every family. I wouldn't care about the cross except I believe that when we get rid of all of them we will them see how to remove the speck in the muslims eye. You see we got a big beam.

Many of us want to cling to the traditions of the past. I say well if they are ancored in the traditions of the apostles. I ask you which one of them ever use a sign or an image? Dosen't it usually mean that when the sons of Isreal departed from walking with their God that they would use images? and what not? remember Ackan's sin and how it harmed Isreal, he saving images inhis tent? when they went out to battle they had no idea that they were going to lose, they didn't think it was posible.

Do you think that any movement that takes in new cultures is not going to be changed and need adjustments? Don't we realign our cars wheels. If you think that the use of images and signs is not harmful you need to then consider the fact that your cross though it doesnt talk is saying something entirely different to that muslim or that agnostit or atheist or Indian or many who have been injured by the sign. The muslim might say to himself (crusader). There your cross spoke and you didn't even know what it said. Though it can't speak only lie.

The first point to address here is that it is true that when the Israelites went astray, they worshipped idols, but it wasn't images that were a problem. The bronze serpant illustrates this perfectly. God commanded the construction of the bronze serpant. When the Israelites were bitten, He commanded them to look to it for aid, which is a form of veneration. However, it ceased being a visual focus or aid and became almost an avatar of God. It became an idol, something which was associated so closely with the God that it was almost a manifestation of that god. God, then, had it destroyed.

The problem that history illustrates is not images, but rather the worship of them as opposed to veneration. This is the theology in the Old Testament: images as a whole were never banned. This is true in the New Testament with the language of the cross. It is most true with the Incarnation. It has always been a part of Christian theology. When we excavate the earliest Christian churches in the catacombs and things, we find images, and the same holds true to early Jewish synagogues.

I cannot change sound doctrine in exchange for people's perceptions. When the Christians were accused of having mass orgies, because of their emphasis on love and greeting each other with a kiss, they didn't change it simply because it caused the Romans to perceive wrongly. When the Romans accused them of cannibalism, they didn't stop quoting Christ as saying "This is my Body," but continued in it.

They did not do so, because it was sound theology. It was what they had always believed. In the eigth century, when the Roman Emperors turned on images, they murdered those who venerated them and broke all they could find. The Christians didn't abandon images either, and of all places, the Church had help from the Muslim world: it protected St. John of Damascus. He, under Muslim rule, did not compromise his teaching for either the Roman Empire or the Muslim ruler (who even cut off his hand once, but God miraculously healed it).

That is the nature of sound doctrine. It must be firm, and it must be what the Christians before had taught. We can't simply change something, because a group opposes it and will condemn it. If a Muslim sees the cross and thinks "crusader," he need remember that Christians see the Quran and see only "holy war." If he calls the image an idol, then he need remember the same theology that protects the Kabaa protects the icons, and that many iconoclast groups in the west teach they worship the Kabaa. They don't compromise their devotion to those things on account of how it is perceived. Rather, they continue, because they respect their faith. Christians must do the same to maintain credibility. We cannot change with the times or with popularity (which is sadly easy for me to say in the West, but my time may come to be on the chopping block).

Ultimately, the image is a guardian of the most sacred teaching of Christianity: that God became man. We cannot compromise this, and it is just as blasphemous to the Muslim. We cannot compromise that. However, if we ban images, then we also ban the incarnation. For what is the incarnation but a heavenly, living, and fleshly image? That is the ultimate charge against Christianity by both Judaism and Islam: faith in the risen God-man is idolatry. Compromising images ultimately compromises that, and a compromise on the Deity of Christ or His work destroys Christianity.
 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
My goodness, you two. Are so exilerating to watch.
dr.khan said:
by having one your self you are in alignment with such who have murdered millions with the use of the cross.


We are all in alignment with every living (and not living) thing on earth and in the Heavens. We seem to forget that sometimes. Especially when we try to argue who is right and who is wrong. That is not for us to decide except for ourselves. Each of us different. I placed this post because the Crucifix- the PUBLIC DISPLAY of the body of Christ hanging in death, bothers me. And I wonder if it is a condradiction to believe in Christ and his teachings, and at the same time, worship and pray to this most barbaric 'graven image'?

ps. I'm leaving for North Carolina. I will get back to you guys on Sunday. ;) :p :rolleyes: :)
 

may

Well-Known Member
md_88 said:
when i see a cross, i think of all those jehovah's witnesses and catholics that badgered me to be a christian or i would go to hell. for me, the cross symbolizes evil.
just to enlighten you , jehovahs witness do not use the cross in there worship , and do not preach hellfire. hell is just mankinds common grave, there is no such thing as hellfire .Jehovahs witness worship with spirit and truth.
"God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth."—JOHN 4:24.

 

Dr. Khan

Member
may said:
just to enlighten you , jehovahs witness do not use the cross in there worship , and do not preach hellfire. hell is just mankinds common grave, there is no such thing as hellfire .Jehovahs witness worship with spirit and truth.
"God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth."—JOHN 4:24.



So... you say you worship God in spirit and in truth. I in the strongest terms doubt seriously any truth to your statement.
When I was first filled with the spirit of the living God, I encountered Jehovah's Witnesses. A new found friend and my first convert, a catholic, had some neighbors who were Jehovah's Witnesses and they were working on him so he brought me to one of their house meetings. This was in 1978. I found them to be argumentative and not giving you a moment to speak nor even to finish a single sentence. So I listened to them, and all the time I was saying to myself these people don't even know about the infilling of the Holy Ghost which I had just received. As a baby christian I realized that religious arguements are a waste of time,that wisdom (wisdom which I didn't even know about at that time ) would be required to provide a man an answer that would set him free from deception of the devil. We could argue the point forever and never agree to anything but to agree to disagree. Therefore I will give you light....
:jiggy: :tsk: The foundation of Jehovah's witnesses is the use of the Father's name to distinct yourself from Christians. How is it then that you would use the Father's name as a first name and even the heathen who know not God know better than to call their father's by their first name. Have you not only called the name of the Father in vain but you dishonor him as well. And doth not the law also say to honour thy father and thy mother that it may be well with you and that you may live long in the earth. Her your religious sect is barley a hundred years old and in this thread it is destroyed. There is no answer for this transgression. Did not Serena in her slams cease to use the name of Yehovah after her and her sisters fall and did not evil visit their family in more ways than one. Here is another (J)ehovah the J is silent. So you have been mispronouncing his name for a hundred years. While you preach that the Father is greater than the Son Doth not the bible say that all the fulness of the Godhead dwells in him bodily. Who on the earth would seek to create disharmony between the Father and the Son. Like the hypicrites before you you can't seem to recognize the greatness in the Son. Now I know why this blot came (upon the body of Christ). Is it not because of the wickedness and treachery and false hood in Christians before you. Therefore you are not totally to blame alone.

:tsk: Do you see now people why Jesus strongly rebuked the pharasees and Sadusee's in his day. Their sin spreads to others and carry them away also.
 

oracle

Active Member
IMO, it's not the death of Jesus that saves, it is the life that he lived. The only thing people need to do is emulate it.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Look here, I am not even going to get started on this actual topic, I just have one question for Dr. Khan.

You said:
Jesus did say that these (signs will follow them that believe) In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; They shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.
You claim to follow and believe Jesus (which by the way is also a first name that you are using so freely), then therefore do these signs apply to you as well?
 

Dr. Khan

Member
Draka said:
Look here, I am not even going to get started on this actual topic, I just have one question for Dr. Khan.

You said:

You claim to follow and believe Jesus (which by the way is also a first name that you are using so freely), then therefore do these signs apply to you as well?
Jesus gives us permission to use his name. The reason for that is to identify the kingdom of God. These sign's are but a few. Jesus said in John 14:12 that he that believeth in me, the works that I do shall he do also and greater works than these shall he do becasuse I go unto my Father. vrse13 And what soever ye ask in my name that will I do that the Father may be glorified in the son. If ye shall ask anything in my name I will do it.

Right now I am entering an overflow so that my works may be magnified so that all men may come to Jesus. I acknowledge Jesus in everything that I say. This is because his law is magnified in my heart.

The commandment is a lamp and the law is light and reproofs of instruction is the way of Life. In this promise is understanding.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Dr. Khan, my point is simply this...I got this somewhere I can't remember now but thought it was good.

If you claim to be a true Christian and then these statements therefore apply to you as well, then have you ever drank strychnine and survived? What about healing...can you lay your hands on AIDS and Cancer patients and cure them? According to that scripture you quoted you should be able to all that and more and therefore if you can't you are not a TRUE Christian and therefore I don't want to hear about Christianity from someone who is not a TRUE Christian.

I know it is extreme and I don't mean to offend anyone else here by that, but I did see that point made somewhere and liked it.
 

Dr. Khan

Member
Draka said:
Dr. Khan, my point is simply this...I got this somewhere I can't remember now but thought it was good.

If you claim to be a true Christian and then these statements therefore apply to you as well, then have you ever drank strychnine and survived? What about healing...can you lay your hands on AIDS and Cancer patients and cure them? According to that scripture you quoted you should be able to all that and more and therefore if you can't you are not a TRUE Christian and therefore I don't want to hear about Christianity from someone who is not a TRUE Christian.

I know it is extreme and I don't mean to offend anyone else here by that, but I did see that point made somewhere and liked it.
I've never drank anything poisonous but always reguritate them. This poison here he speaks of is lies that will destroy your faith. come with me to Romans 3:13

Their throat is an open sepulchre (grave); with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 whose mouth is ......

Those in my church anointed to lay hands on the sick, do so we can all lays hands by faith believing, but I spent my time searching for the greater Works which I am glad to reveal. There are two incidents in the bible when Jesus was with the people. In each of these incidents he praised the persons for having great faith. In both those occasions the person involved had his will done by command. (Word)
This kind of Faith pleases Jesus more than anything else. In his ministry nothing pleased him more. So you can see I am about pleasing Jesus more. I was made to do so for his name's sake. These things are mentioned in 1corinthiaqns 12.
Jesus said we would also be cast out of synogogues, imprisoned, beaten, hated, murdered, persecuted, seperarted from our families, for his sake. These are the things which drive many away and reform a religious cause to escape the things which he promised. Because the world hates him it should hate us also. And if this be so human nature is to compromise. thus we have many religions leading to nowhere. Because Jesus said his path is narrow; most would follow the broad way this has always been trueand the time is now for some other parts of his words to be true. For example What if every one got into the narrow way in the last days. Jesus would surely come. When all weapons have been destroyed and wars have come to and end ant this gospel preached into all the world so that every inhabitant can understand. That is if the religious right in America don't kill us all.
 
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