Perfection and Free Will

I posted this thread under same faith debates, but didn't receive much of a response, so I'm trying again here and rewording it, hopefully this will work better... everyone's free to respond... please do!

The Christian belief is that God is all powerful. If he wanted to, he could create a perfect world. Obviously, he didn't. The reason most christians offer for this is that since we are sinful creatures, it's impossible for the world to be perfect while we have free will. But isn't this limiting God's power? Couldn't this supposedly omnipotent God create a world that is perfect, in which we still have free will? Why or why not? If he could, why didn't he?

Maybe God would think it is a perfect world. It's humans who don't think it's perfect. I can hear God saying "Jeeesh, not matter what I do they complain."

groovydancer88 said:

I posted this thread under same faith debates, but didn't receive much of a response, so I'm trying again here and rewording it, hopefully this will work better... everyone's free to respond... please do!

The Christian belief is that God is all powerful. If he wanted to, he could create a perfect world. Obviously, he didn't. The reason most christians offer for this is that since we are sinful creatures, it's impossible for the world to be perfect while we have free will. But isn't this limiting God's power? Couldn't this supposedly omnipotent God create a world that is perfect, in which we still have free will? Why or why not? If he could, why didn't he?

Click to expand...

The way i've always seen it is God could have created us kinds like robots......or slaves.....and the world would be perfect on our part, atleast. God wanted us to choose him freely, therefore he gave us minds to do that, therefore we have free will. I would much rather be able to do bad things and be forgiven than to not have any choice in the matter. I dont think the world is an imperfect place because we are sinful creatures, i just think it would be kinda boring. And i'm sure God could have created a perfect world while giving up a free will, but he didn'd obviously, and I dont know why. I mean, if we knew the mind of God im sure the world would be perfect.

You cannot grow unless you are challanged. Most truths are revealed as we work through various issues in our lives.

This is only a problem if god is presumed to be both all powerful and all good. Since I believe god is tao, and tao is neither good nor evil, than there is no problem. The world is naturally as it should be.

cvipertooth said:

God wanted us to choose him freely, therefore he gave us minds to do that, therefore we have free will. I would much rather be able to do bad things and be forgiven than to not have any choice in the matter. I dont think the world is an imperfect place because we are sinful creatures, i just think it would be kinda boring. And i'm sure God could have created a perfect world while giving up a free will, but he didn'd obviously, and I dont know why. I mean, if we knew the mind of God im sure the world would be perfect.

Click to expand...

Well there are several questions that come up for me within the story that Christianity has for the origin of sin.

Why would anyone created perfect choose something imperfect?
In the case of Adam and Eve, greed or fear (imperfection) would have to be present for Adam and Eve to choose something "greater."

And if they were decieved, why would God pit Satan, a being of vast intellectual ability against such inexperienced beings as Adam and Eve?

I know how easily a child is decieved, many adults for that matter. It would have been a no brainer that Satan would be able to easily trick Adam and Eve.

These are not examples of free will. They are examples of choices made under ignorance.

True free will would be able to understand the effects of those choices and have the power to carry out one's choices.

In terms of the Christian view of our choice for heaven, I wouldn't call that free will either.

Its generally God's way, as determined by Christian doctrine, or burn in hell forever. That's not exactly what I would call a free choice.

Yes, God is all-powerful and perfect and the world isn't. Just because the world isn't doesn't mean God isn't. It means that an perfect and all-powerful God decided not to create a perfect world. The world was perfect until he created human beings with free will. We have free will because he wants us to enjoy him and delight in him because we want to and because its our desire, not because we're mindless and we have to.

But why he didn't create a perfect world? I don't know and it really doesn't matter to me.

Maybe God builded tons of worlds. one perfect with free will, one not so perfect with free will, one perfect without free will, etc..
Why would he be satisfied with only one reality?

groovydancer88 said:

I posted this thread under same faith debates, but didn't receive much of a response, so I'm trying again here and rewording it, hopefully this will work better... everyone's free to respond... please do!

The Christian belief is that God is all powerful. If he wanted to, he could create a perfect world. Obviously, he didn't. The reason most christians offer for this is that since we are sinful creatures, it's impossible for the world to be perfect while we have free will. But isn't this limiting God's power? Couldn't this supposedly omnipotent God create a world that is perfect, in which we still have free will? Why or why not? If he could, why didn't he?

Click to expand...

Disclaimer: This post is from my personal faith so keep that in mind.

I think there are two things that can confuse us when dealing with this subject. One: The need for perfection. I can not think of anywhere in the bible (by this I mean the Jewish bible I use) where it says we must be perfect. We were given laws and commandments to strive towards perfecting. but this does not mean we are expected to be perfect. It's like a father telling his new born baby, "OK, I'm coming back in one year's time and by that time I want you to be able to care for yourself, walk, talk and be completely responsible for yourself and don't screw up. If you can't do that I'm going to kill you.". No loving father would do that. And neither does G-d.

Two: It can be very, very hard for people, especially christians, to get past the concept of original sin. This is not a Jewish concept. We are not born dirty, filthy sinners deserving of death. We are born with a good inclination and a bad inclination. And depending on our level of faith and and adherence to the laws and commands given us the two inclinations are equal. We have the same capacity to do good as to do evil. G-d created good and life and evil and death that we may choose good and life.

And the concept of original sin and the need to be perfect is further complicated for many people when we bring in the Jewish theology that there is not a hell and we are not damned until we believe in someone or any certain theological system.

Where there is Choice, there must necessarily be conflict. That is the reality of Creation. Choice requires discrimination: but the things rejected have realities and destinies of their own. Because this is true, the world and creation appears flawed and imperfect: because you percieve it only with the intellect, which is incapable of true discernment of its own accord as it sees only the parts and not the holistic whole.

Give up the idea of Freewill and submit to the Deterministic nature of all things extant: this is egodeath. Then you are reborn and made perfect.

Well...I can't find a reason for God to make the world be perfect..
God created us to be examined in this life, and gave us free minds to choose right from wrong so that those who chose right will be rewarded, and those who chose wrong will be punished...
And gave us the methods to learn and educate ourselves so that to have a natural sense of what is wrong and what is right...
And because he is the most mercifull and justice, He never asked us in any of the religions ( which I believe in) to be perfect, He even told us in the Quran that every person makes mistakes, but the best people are those who continously ask for His forgivness...

By logic, if you think about it, it's so boring to live in a perfect world, with nothing new...everything is so perfect and routin...baa!!

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." Albert Einstein

cvipertooth said:

The way i've always seen it is God could have created us kinds like robots......or slaves.....and the world would be perfect on our part, atleast. God wanted us to choose him freely, therefore he gave us minds to do that, therefore we have free will. I would much rather be able to do bad things and be forgiven than to not have any choice in the matter. I dont think the world is an imperfect place because we are sinful creatures, i just think it would be kinda boring. And i'm sure God could have created a perfect world while giving up a free will, but he didn'd obviously, and I dont know why. I mean, if we knew the mind of God im sure the world would be perfect.

Click to expand...

Excellent response........

groovydancer88 said:

I posted this thread under same faith debates, but didn't receive much of a response, so I'm trying again here and rewording it, hopefully this will work better... everyone's free to respond... please do!

The Christian belief is that God is all powerful. If he wanted to, he could create a perfect world. Obviously, he didn't. The reason most christians offer for this is that since we are sinful creatures, it's impossible for the world to be perfect while we have free will. But isn't this limiting God's power? Couldn't this supposedly omnipotent God create a world that is perfect, in which we still have free will? Why or why not? If he could, why didn't he?

Click to expand...

God is perfect,just and holy and he attempted to make us and the world perfect as long as we remained in him,but when we man was tempted and disobeyed the image was broken, the earth was cursed, we became defiled and we lost our status ,we inturn forfieted over our eternal state,all authority,rights and power and priviledges we had,and we began to walk in a new nature,one that was sinful,twisted and tainted and only through his sacrifice could we be brought back to that state.
That will fully happen when we see him1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Befruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

The only way God could create a people to love him ,worship him and have fellowship with is by giving them free will,much like your relationship with a spouse would be or maybe is.
When God created us and the world it was not that he messed up,but that he placed rules,standards ,laws of the land and nature.
It is when man went against those spirutal,natural laws that suffering was the by product

God's Creation IS perfect, but it's also dynamic. The FORCES that act upon one another in that dynamic multiverse is not understood by us.

When God created 'mankind' man's ability to decide on his actions is just one more Dynamic Force.

Regards,
Scott