The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

mickiel · Jun 28, 2008

I don't believe The great religious leaders of this world were given a portion of Gods light, I believe just the oppisite, they were given a portion of the darkness, which only has served to further confuse humanity. I see that as being Gods will, to confuse humanity, not enlighten any of us. Romans 11:32 for example;" For God has " Shut up ALL men into disobedience." How is any human going to get around this? Of course some of us in our pride, would like to exclude ourselves from this great portion of confusion.

We cannot. We must first be resleased from it, or it will stamp our very being all throughout our lives. Its is God who gives the human their being, what they are aware of, and how they are aware. Through him we live and have our being.

Peace.

madhatter85 · Jun 28, 2008

mickiel said:
I don't believe The great religious leaders of this world were given a portion of Gods light, I believe just the oppisite, they were given a portion of the darkness, which only has served to further confuse humanity. I see that as being Gods will, to confuse humanity, not enlighten any of us. Romans 11:32 for example;" For God has " Shut up ALL men into disobedience." How is any human going to get around this? Of course some of us in our pride, would like to exclude ourselves from this great portion of confusion.

We cannot. We must first be resleased from it, or it will stamp our very being all throughout our lives. Its is God who gives the human their being, what they are aware of, and how they are aware. Through him we live and have our being.

Peace.

But that sounds like a horrible God, not talking to anyone.

Besides Romans 11 is as follows:

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen

mickiel · Jun 28, 2008

madhatter85 said:
But that sounds like a horrible God, not talking to anyone.

Besides Romans 11 is as follows:

It may sound horrible, but it is what it is. In Isaiah 45:15, 1:15 and 54:7, all show that God purposely hides himself from humanity, and he has his reasons for doing as such. I don't complettely understand his reasons, but he has not revealed himself to humanity.

God has a plan for humanity, or he wouldnot have created us. What we think and do does not factor into his plans, hes going to do what he will do, and nothing can stop that. This is how God really thinks about humanitys efforts to understand him. Isaiah 40:17;" All the nations are as nothing to him, they are reguarded as " Less than nothing and meaningless."

Every single religion on earth, every group that claims to know God, they all are reguarded as LESS than nothing to him. Its just meaningless what people are teaching about God, its all nothing.

The future is up to God, not us.

Peace.

logician · Jun 28, 2008

mickiel said:
It may sound horrible, but it is what it is. In Isaiah 45:15, 1:15 and 54:7, all show that God purposely hides himself from humanity, and he has his reasons for doing as such. I don't complettely understand his reasons, but he has not revealed himself to humanity.

God has a plan for humanity, or he wouldnot have created us. What we think and do does not factor into his plans, hes going to do what he will do, and nothing can stop that. This is how God really thinks about humanitys efforts to understand him. Isaiah 40:17;" All the nations are as nothing to him, they are reguarded as " Less than nothing and meaningless."

Every single religion on earth, every group that claims to know God, they all are reguarded as LESS than nothing to him. Its just meaningless what people are teaching about God, its all nothing.

The future is up to God, not us.

Peace.

Interesting, is this the "people are meaningless to god" philosophy?

mickiel · Jun 28, 2008

logician said:
Interesting, is this the "people are meaningless to god" philosophy?

This is no philosophy, its recorded in the book of Isaiah 40:15-17. In vs. 15 it states that the nations are like drops of water from a bucket to God and are reguarded as a speck of dust on the scales. In vs. 23 it calls God " He who reduces Rulers to nothing" and he makes the Judges of the Earth " Meaningless." As we bicker back and forth on earth talking about religion and God, he couldcareless what men are thinking and saying. All these philosophys on earth are OUR creation, not his. God has one thing on his mind, and its recorded in Isaiah 45:23;" I have Sworn by MYSELF, the Word has gone forth from MY mouth in righteousness and WILLNOT turn back. That to me EVERY human will bow and ALL will swear allegiance to me."

This is the destiny of all of humanity, we will ALL bow to God at his appointed time, we ALL will come to know him.

It just does not matter who believes or understands this. Its just a done deal.

And I think its the deal of the century. Peace.

logician · Jun 28, 2008

mickiel said:
This is no philosophy, its recorded in the book of Isaiah 40:15-17. In vs. 15 it states that the nations are like drops of water from a bucket to God and are reguarded as a speck of dust on the scales. In vs. 23 it calls God " He who reduces Rulers to nothing" and he makes the Judges of the Earth " Meaningless." As we bicker back and forth on earth talking about religion and God, he couldcareless what men are thinking and saying. All these philosophys on earth are OUR creation, not his. God has one thing on his mind, and its recorded in Isaiah 45:23;" I have Sworn by MYSELF, the Word has gone forth from MY mouth in righteousness and WILLNOT turn back. That to me EVERY human will bow and ALL will swear allegiance to me."

This is the destiny of all of humanity, we will ALL bow to God at his appointed time, we ALL will come to know him.

It just does not matter who believes or understands this. Its just a done deal.

And I think its the deal of the century. Peace.

Sorry, but your belief is "my way or the highway" which is to say, cannot be true.

mickiel · Jun 28, 2008

logician said:
Sorry, but your belief is "my way or the highway" which is to say, cannot be true.

No need to be sorry, I am not sorry about my views, I like how I believe, and like it very much so, or why should I believe it and not like it. Thats foolish to me, to believe in something that you do not like. I like a God who cannot be manipulated by mens views.

I also consider this same reasonings with this eternal hell doctrine. The Christians who believe in eternal torture, they like it. They like the ideal of humans suffering forever. Now if they lie and say they do not like it, then they must admit to believing in something that God will do that they don't like.

There is nothing that God does that I do not Like.

Peace.

Dirty Penguin · Jun 28, 2008

mickiel said:
I really am looking to understand God, but not this God that humans teach, but the real God of Love , Joy and Peace. Not this God of eternal hell punishing, but the God of Patience, forgiveness and Mercy. You know, the real God, not this insane lunatic that many are trying to pass God off as being. You know, this lunatic that will place humans in this eternal Pain amphlipier and punish them for billions upon trillions of untold time and on into infinity. I just can't imagine how out of control this hell fire belief has gotten. And how much these bloodthirsty christians who teach it have ruined Gods reputation.

The eternal punishing of anything, muchless a human, is a sick concept, yet many believers have swallowed it into their belief, hook, line and sinker. And THAT is evidence of just how much foolishness we will absorb.

Peace.

There are no gods. Start out with that and you won't need the rest of the "stories"...

mickiel · Jun 28, 2008

Dirty Penguin said:
There are no gods. Start out with that and you won't need the rest of the "stories"...

What I don't need is whatever has a hold on your mind. I don't need a godless view of life, such a view is morbid and vain. Empty and shallow, mystic and useless.

All the things that seem to attract a surprizing element of humanity.

Peace.

mickiel · Jun 29, 2008

This is why I waste no time trying to comvince others of a view of God, because far too many have either no view of God , or a perverted view of him. You can't convince a person that God exist, there is really no need in trying. Here you have an all powerful God, able to do his own convincing far better than us who believe. But this same God has stamped unbelief inside of someone, who am I to superseed what God has done, and then try myself to undo it?

No, no, too many believers take it unto themselves to play God and try to open a mind that God has shut. People are what they are , only because that is what God wants them to be " For Now." It is Gods will for there to be atheist, perverts, murderers, you name it! NO,. God has already named it to be so. HE wanted there to be a certain number of people who do not believe in him, and that is exactly what has occured. Its perfect. It has been as God has willed it to be! God is in total control of this stuff, nothing has occured that he didNOT want to happen.

Human history is simply an unfolding of Gods Will.

Peace.

nox1056 · Jun 29, 2008

mickiel said:
What I don't need is whatever has a hold on your mind. I don't need a godless view of life, such a view is morbid and vain. Empty and shallow, mystic and useless.

All the things that seem to attract a surprizing element of humanity.

Peace.

How is that an empty view? It still has faith in it, just not faith in God. It still has beliefs and despite the main difference that there is no God in that view, how is it any different than your own?

nox1056 · Jun 29, 2008

mickiel said:
This is why I waste no time trying to comvince others of a view of God, because far too many have either no view of God , or a perverted view of him. You can't convince a person that God exist, there is really no need in trying. Here you have an all powerful God, able to do his own convincing far better than us who believe. But this same God has stamped unbelief inside of someone, who am I to superseed what God has done, and then try myself to undo it?

No, no, too many believers take it unto themselves to play God and try to open a mind that God has shut. People are what they are , only because that is what God wants them to be " For Now." It is Gods will for there to be atheist, perverts, murderers, you name it! NO,. God has already named it to be so. HE wanted there to be a certain number of people who do not believe in him, and that is exactly what has occured. Its perfect. It has been as God has willed it to be! God is in total control of this stuff, nothing has occured that he didNOT want to happen.

Human history is simply an unfolding of Gods Will.

Peace.

One of my main reasons for disbelief in God, is because people like you say that he loves all of his "creations" yet is still willing to allow them to war, murder, and rape each other (and apparently wants them to?)

Doesn't really make sense now does it?

mickiel · Jun 29, 2008

nox1056 said:
One of my main reasons for disbelief in God, is because people like you say that he loves all of his "creations" yet is still willing to allow them to war, murder, and rape each other (and apparently wants them to?)

Doesn't really make sense now does it?

Not the kind of sense that is common, no. So I understand the confusion. People like me can speak all they wish to, but still belief in God falls to his responsibility, not ours. If you do not believe, you are not supposed to believe, so be in your space. I believe, not because of anything in myself, its just the way it is for now.

Peace.

nox1056 · Jun 29, 2008

Doesn't free will kind of effect that though? I don't want to believe, so i don't. I'm pretty sure that even the Bible says we have free will so isn't it possible that God didn't plan it, we just decided for ourselves not to?

logician · Jun 29, 2008

If there is no free will, then going to a supposed heaven or hell is already predetermined, god has made the decision for you in advance.

mickiel · Jun 29, 2008

nox1056 said:
Doesn't free will kind of effect that though? I don't want to believe, so i don't. I'm pretty sure that even the Bible says we have free will so isn't it possible that God didn't plan it, we just decided for ourselves not to?

Well I don't view that as possible, God has already planned humanitys future. It is called predestination, or our destiny has already been preset. You don't believe, because God does not yet want you to believe. In Jeremiah 29:11 it shows that God will predetermine the future of humans. And all humans are included in this, not just believers. Believers are believers, because their supposed to be believers, and that not of themselves, or their will, its just a gift from God. Believers just like to credit themselves for their belief, but they don't correctly understand that even just mere simple belief in God, is given by God, it is NOT a self induced decision. And certain believers in God have absolutely no understanding of this, yet its right there in the bible, but they listen to their pastors and ignore the bible.

Again in Jeremiah 10:23;" I know, O Lord, that a mans way is not in himself, nor is it in a man who walks to direct his own steps." In other words, humans have a will, but it is not free as they think it is. A human cannot believe in God on their own will, it must be Spiritually induced by God first for a human to believe in him. The human mind is carnal, or devoid of God, left to itself, it will remain that way. In 2 Corinth. 5:14;" The Love of Christ " Controls us." We ARE controled by God, but humans hate to consider this. But God controls us in the nature of his Love. Humans hate to think that we are " Robots", so free will is embraced. Well we are not robots, God gave us a mind of our own, but we are heavily influenced by his will. This is just unseen.

Again in Philippians 1:29 " For to you it has been granted to believe in God." Now here it is again so plain, belief in God is NOT a personal decision, it is a God induced mentality. Read verse 13 of this same chapter;" For IT IS GOD who is at work in you, BOTH to WILL and to work for him." God controls the human will, easily manipulates it as he sees fit, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about this.

Peace.

idea · Jun 29, 2008

mickiel said:
Well I don't view that as possible, God has already planned humanitys future. It is called predestination, or our destiny has already been preset. You don't believe, because God does not yet want you to believe. In Jeremiah 29:11 it shows that God will predetermine the future of humans. And all humans are included in this, not just believers. Believers are believers, because their supposed to be believers, and that not of themselves, or their will, its just a gift from God. Believers just like to credit themselves for their belief, but they don't correctly understand that even just mere simple belief in God, is given by God, it is NOT a self induced decision. And certain believers in God have absolutely no understanding of this, yet its right there in the bible, but they listen to their pastors and ignore the bible.

Again in Jeremiah 10:23;" I know, O Lord, that a mans way is not in himself, nor is it in a man who walks to direct his own steps." In other words, humans have a will, but it is not free as they think it is. A human cannot believe in God on their own will, it must be Spiritually induced by God first for a human to believe in him. The human mind is carnal, or devoid of God, left to itself, it will remain that way. In 2 Corinth. 5:14;" The Love of Christ " Controls us." We ARE controled by God, but humans hate to consider this. But God controls us in the nature of his Love. Humans hate to think that we are " Robots", so free will is embraced. Well we are not robots, God gave us a mind of our own, but we are heavily influenced by his will. This is just unseen.

Again in Philippians 1:29 " For to you it has been granted to believe in God." Now here it is again so plain, belief in God is NOT a personal decision, it is a God induced mentality. Read verse 13 of this same chapter;" For IT IS GOD who is at work in you, BOTH to WILL and to work for him." God controls the human will, easily manipulates it as he sees fit, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about this.

Peace.

We have free will. Free will all the way.
please read the link - link

Just because God knows what is going to happen, does not mean that He causes it to happen. We are the ones responsible for our own future.

Choose ye this day whom ye will serve etc etc...
a few scripts. We have a choice, we have a will, that we can freely use.
Gen. 2:16 Of every tree ... thou mayest freely eat
Deut. 11:27 blessing, if ye obey
Deut. 30:19 therefore choose life
Josh. 24:15 choose ... whom ye will serve
Prov. 1:29 did not choose the fear of the Lord
Matt. 26:39 not as I will, but as thou wilt
John 5:30 I seek not mine own will

mickiel · Jun 29, 2008

Humans do not have free will. Free will is the human effort to golrify and pacify the self. It is the human need to pat itself on the back, assert itself and claim that it was their own choice to be aware of God. The belief in free will is simply evidence of a serious lack in understanding God, and a serious need to glorify yourself.

Peace.

madhatter85 · Jun 29, 2008

mickiel said:
Humans do not have free will. Free will is the human effort to golrify and pacify the self. It is the human need to pat itself on the back, assert itself and claim that it was their own choice to be aware of God. The belief in free will is simply evidence of a serious lack in understanding God, and a serious need to glorify yourself.

Peace.

how? how do you think that we do not have free will. what makes you think this? where do you get the idea?

mickiel · Jun 29, 2008

madhatter85 said:
how? how do you think that we do not have free will. what makes you think this? where do you get the idea?

I cannot give sight to what you are blind to. Its simular to a taste, once you have tasted something that another has not tasted, how do you explain the taste? Your mind is convinced that we have free will, that is your ideal. In comming to know a little about God, I can now see that there is no free will. It is not our will, but Gods will is the determing factor. This has set me free of certain thinking and common beliefs about the will of a human. You see your will as free, who am I to convince you otherwise.

Just be content in your belief, as I am in mine.

Peace.

The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

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