is jesus god ?

Dirty Penguin · Jan 26, 2008

emiliano said:
I direct your attention to the fact that stoning is no where recorded in scripture as punishment for offences against the Patriarchs.

Actually, it didn't take much back then for people to get ticked off and ready to throw stones.

1Kings 21:13
And there came in two men, children of Belial, and sat before him: and the men of Belial witnessed against him, even against Naboth, in the presence of the people, saying, Naboth did blaspheme Elohim and the king. Then they carried him forth out of the city, and stoned him with stones, that he died.

The charge of blasphemey was untrue but as far as the people knew, witnesses stepped forward making this accusation and they stoned the man to death.

Or in Exodus one of the laws were;

Exodus 21:28
"If a bull gores a man or woman to death, the bull must be stoned, and its flesh may not be eaten. In such a case, however, the owner will not be held liable.

So for the people wanting to stone Yeshua is not surprising given that he, to them, disrespected Abraham. They wanted to kill him all along (John 8:37) but in 8:58 was the tipping point. For them, he had said enough and they sought to kill him.

McBell · Jan 26, 2008

sandy whitelinger said:
:ignore::run::canoe::sleep:

Agreed.

ChristineES said:
But wouldn't this go into a debates forum?

It should be.
And it will likely be moved do to debating...

Dirty Penguin · Jan 26, 2008

Mestemia said:
It should be.
And it will likely be moved do to debating...

Yea....I tried not to get caught up in a debate. I tried to do some comparing between Islam, Christianity and Judaism....but it seems others, as well as myself, like to debate. I hope that they move it......but really....a debate like this is already going on in the (is trinity in the bible and did jesus say he was god) debate. Do we really need another one? Too many to keep up with.....

serapha · Jan 27, 2008

musharraf said:
christian says jesus claim divinity !
there is not a single verse in the complete bible where he him self claimed as god !

if any one find that verse please tell me .but
a verse a time !
it will be fair for discussion.:shout

Hi there....

Sometimes, actions speak much louder than words. Jesus did not want to pay the temple tax because as God only begotten Son, He didn't feel he had to pay tax to the temple. He only had Peter get the money from the fishes' mouth so it wouldn't cause alarm. That means... it "wasn't his time yet".

~serapha~

Francine · Jan 27, 2008

serapha said:
Sometimes, actions speak much louder than words. Jesus did not want to pay the temple tax because as God only begotten Son, He didn't feel he had to pay tax to the temple. He only had Peter get the money from the fishes' mouth so it wouldn't cause alarm. That means... it "wasn't his time yet".

Jesus said none of the faithful should have to pay the temple tax, but he did it anyway because he wasn't in the mood to belabor this point. Time was short.

Popeyesays · Jan 27, 2008

Jesus said "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's." The Temple tax was not Caesar's.

Regards,
Scott

emiliano · Jan 28, 2008

DreGod07 said:
Actually, it didn't take much back then for people to get ticked off and ready to throw stones.
1Kings 21:13
And there came in two men, children of Belial, and sat before him: and the men of Belial witnessed against him, even against Naboth, in the presence of the people, saying, Naboth did blaspheme Elohim and the king. Then they carried him forth out of the city, and stoned him with stones, that he died.

The charge of blasphemey was untrue but as far as the people knew, witnesses stepped forward making this accusation and they stoned the man to death.
quote]
Well this is what I wanted to direct the attention to, the Scribes and Pharisees took Jesus discourse as saying I AM God, there is is another instance in scripicture where this is clearly shown Mar 2:27 And He said to them, The sabbath came into being for man's sake, and not man for the sabbath's sake.
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the sabbath.
Joh 5:18 Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God.

Dirty Penguin · Jan 28, 2008

emiliano said:
Well this is what I wanted to direct the attention to, the Scribes and Pharisees took Jesus discourse as saying I AM God,

I'm not sure what bible you're reading from but if you want to quote the bible at least quote it correctly. The word (God) does not appear in John 8:58. This is a terrible misrepresentation of the scriptures. There is no reason to put words in the mouth of Yeshua he didn't say.

John 8:58 (NKJV)
Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Strongs Greek Lexicon
ego
1473. ego eg-o' a primary pronoun of the first person I (only expressed when emphatic):--I, me.

eimi
1510. eimi i-mee' the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was

John 8:58
Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born

Yeshua is talking about his prehuman existence. What set them off was that he told them he existed before their beloved Abraham. The argument that they wanted to kill him because he said he was God is false since way back before this in John 8:37 is where they wanted to kill him. This prehuman existence does not mean he is God as observed in his prayer to his god later in the same book in John 17:5

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify you, me with your own self with the glory which I had (WITH) you before the world existed.

But right before that he let's us know exactly who his god is and who he is and none of it has anything to do with "him" being God.

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU, the only true God, and Jesus the Messiah, whom YOU HAVE SENT.

It can't get any more simple than that verse. In fact, the whole of chapter 17 is a prayer from Yeshua to his god.

emiliano said:
there is is another instance in scripicture where this is clearly shown Mar 2:27 And He said to them, The sabbath came into being for man's sake, and not man for the sabbath's sake.
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the sabbath.

In context this has nothing to do with him being God. Don't think that because it says "lord" in that verse it is taken to mean God. On the contrary, you will now find bibles rendering it as (master) which is more in keeping with the Aramaic word (rab) or hebrew (rabbi) or (rabboni) which he was called. He was not the only person in the scripture caller (lord) so this title of respect is not exclusive to him. But the context of this event starts a little earlier in verse 23 and it continues up to verse 28 (NOT skipping ANY of the verses in between).

Mark 2:23-28
23 One Sabbath day as Jesus was walking through some grainfields, his disciples began breaking off heads of wheat.

24 But the Pharisees said to Jesus, "They shouldn't be doing that! It's against the law to work by harvesting grain on the Sabbath."

25 But Jesus replied, "Haven't you ever read in the Scriptures what King David did when he and his companions were hungry?

26 He went into the house of God (during the days when Abiathar was high priest), ate the special bread reserved for the priests alone, and then gave some to his companions. That was breaking the law, too."

27 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made to benefit people, and not people to benefit the Sabbath.

28 And I, the Son of Man, am master even of the Sabbath!"

If he was saying he was God then the events in the next chapter would have been null because thay would have tried to kill him before he healed that man's hand.

emiliano said:
Joh 5:18 Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God.

Then immediately after that he clears that misconception of theirs up by saying;

John 5:19
Jesus replied, "I assure you, the Son can do nothing by himself. He does only what he sees the Father doing. Whatever the Father does, the Son also does

ironangel · Feb 8, 2008

Jesus is God manifested in the flesh.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.

Dirty Penguin · Feb 8, 2008

ironangel said:
Jesus is God manifested in the flesh.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.

We are all aware that the writer of the book of John wrote his opinion but later in the same book the writer adds a quote that Yeshua was supposed to have said....

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and YESHUA THE MESSIAH, whom YOU HAVE SENT.

People try their hardest to find verses like the ones you have and give numerous interpretations as to what they might mean. Well John 17:3 from the lips of Yeshua are plain, simple and direct. Do we need numerous interpretations here? I don't think so. It is obvious that in his PRAYER to HIS god he aknowledges that simplicity.

Other than the writer's opinion or the opinions of those after Yeshua who never knew him, met him, or spoke to him can you find where YESHUA said he was God?

Lucian · Feb 11, 2008

musharraf said:
christian says jesus claim divinity !
there is not a single verse in the complete bible where he him self claimed as god !

if any one find that verse please tell me .but
a verse a time !
it will be fair for discussion.:shout

John 10:34. Jesus answered them: "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are Gods'?"
35. "If he called them Gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36. do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?"
Psalm 82:6. I said: "You are Gods, And all of you are Sons of the Most High."

So he kind of did. Jesus did not claim to be the true God however, so that is how he didn't.

Dirty Penguin · Feb 11, 2008

Lucian said:
So he kind of did. Jesus did not claim to be the true God however, so that is how he didn't.

Too many places where he gives props to his god for one to truely consider God. The way I see it is he taught a oneness of purpose with God but did not come to teach they were one in the same. Men later on got it twisted and start calling him God.

I find it kind of hard to take him as God when he prays to his god and showing us in the prayer he isn't God.

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and YESHUA THE MESSIAH, whom YOU HAVE SENT.

I can certainly understand his question though. Did Yeshsua claim divinity? Well, I see divinity as not being an issue. One can be divine without being a deity. They don't necessarily have to coexist. So, although Yeshua was divine he was not deity.

Lucian · Feb 11, 2008

DreGod07 said:
Too many places where he gives props to his god for one to truely consider God. The way I see it is he taught a oneness of purpose with God but did not come to teach they were one in the same. Men later on got it twisted and start calling him God.

I find it kind of hard to take him as God when he prays to his god and showing us in the prayer he isn't God.

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and YESHUA THE MESSIAH, whom YOU HAVE SENT.

I can certainly understand his question though. Did Yeshsua claim divinity? Well, I see divinity as not being an issue. One can be divine without being a deity. They don't necessarily have to coexist. So, although Yeshua was divine he was not deity.

I agree with you completely. Interesting thoughts!

Dentonz · Feb 13, 2008

DreGod07 said:
The problem with this christian assertion is that it isn't read in context. If one truly takes the time to study the whole chapter in context they will see that Yeshua is not making the declaration that he is God and they will also find that the reason they wanted to kill him was because he said he existed before Abraham. Back in verse 8:37 is where we first hear Yeshua saying to them that they wanted to kill him. So it wasn't in 8:58. They wanted to kill him way before he said he existed before Abraham. The focus of the conversation is on Abraham. The descendants of Abraham had a great respect and love for him so for some young man to come along appearing to boast that he was greater than Abraham or knew Abraham before he existed was a great disrespect to them. An understanding of the greek that is being used clarifies that.

John 8:58
Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!

Strongs Greek Lexicon
ego
1473. ego eg-o' a primary pronoun of the first person I (only expressed when emphatic):--I, me.

eimi
1510. eimi i-mee' the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was

For me the question is, did Yeshua actually exist before Abraham and if he did does he reveal to us that he was God? Well to answer that question I look to this verse;

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify you, me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.

So the answer is yes he existed before Abraham but No, he does not reveal he is God rather he was with his god before the world was created. Additionally if you look at 17:5 at the end is that word (existed). Some render it as (was). It is the same word that is in John 8:58 (am). They mean the same thing. Yeshua (existed before Abraham). There was no declaration made by him calling himself God.

In Islam God is God and that's it. All of the prophets are considered rasullulah (Isa rasulullah, Muhammad rasulluah, Musa rasullulahh, Ibrahim rasullulah). Are they considered God or God in the flesh? No. Islam teaches that these men were blessed by Allah to speak the word of Allah.

Now one could make the same Argument that other prophets in the OT were God in the flesh and this theory was not exclusive to Yeshua. Reading the 1st chapter in the book of Haggai gives one the impression that Haggai is God incarnate. Do Jews or Christians believe that he is. Nope. In that book he is called God's Messenger and God's Prophet just like in Islam. Yeshua says the same thing about himself. He calls himself the servant of the master, the one that was sent. He calls himself a prophet as well.

John 3:34
For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure unto him.

John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his master; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Luke 13:13
Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

If we look upon Yeshua with mystery then we will be mystified but if we look upon him with open eyes then the simple truth as to who he was and who sent him is revealed clearly with no mystery.

At least 17 times in the gospels Jesus uses the term in "my name" referring to himself. He instructs that there is authority and power in his name. We all know that all power is given by God, and that all prophets recognize that they have no power of their own. So if Jesus ever did say that there was power in his name, he was making himself at least equal with God.

If that assumption is correct; the view that Jesus is God would support the authority in his name. However, if you hold the view that he is not God; then you must believe that he committed blasphemy and was a liar and a false prophet.

You can not hold Jesus as a credible prophet of God if you do not accept his divinity.

Te Deum · Feb 13, 2008

Is Jesus divine?

YES! Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ is the second person of the Holy Trinity - God the Son. Along with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, they are but one and the same God present in three different persons. Remember when God told Moses "I Am who I am" (Exodus 3:14). Now let's look in the New Testament where Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58). Jesus Christ and the God of the Old Testament are the same! Jesus Christ is God! He is divine! This is part of the great mystery of the Holy Trinity.

Furthermore, St. Thomas the Apostle in John 20:28 addresses Jesus as "My Lord and my God." In John 10:30, Jesus declares: "I and the Father are one." All of these references illustrate that Jesus Christ is truly divine.

Dirty Penguin · Feb 13, 2008

Te Deum said:
Is Jesus divine?

YES! Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ is the second person of the Holy Trinity - God the Son. Along with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, they are but one and the same God present in three different persons. Remember when God told Moses "I Am who I am" (Exodus 3:14). Now let's look in the New Testament where Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58). Jesus Christ and the God of the Old Testament are the same! Jesus Christ is God! He is divine! This is part of the great mystery of the Holy Trinity.

Furthermore, St. Thomas the Apostle in John 20:28 addresses Jesus as "My Lord and my God." In John 10:30, Jesus declares: "I and the Father are one." All of these references illustrate that Jesus Christ is truly divine.

What you just said will be forever the total claim that Yeshua is God. But when Yeshua makes statements that reveals he's not God....oh, now deep interpretation has to be used in order to understand what he meant. All of what you said, before you came along to this thread and skipped to the end to respond, has already been addressed. The view of him being God is in striking contrast as to how he saw himself or how others around him viewed him.

His own mother who birthed him did not think he was God. After his birth they brought him to be presented to "the lord"..If he is God what lord were they bringing him to?

Martha said to him "I know that whatever YOU ask of God, GOD will give it to YOU". She didn't take him to be God.

Yeshua himself didn't think he was God as reflected in his prayer to his god in the WHOLE chapter 17 of the book of John. One verse that gives it away is;

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and YESHUA THE MESSIAH, whom YOU HAVE SENT.

Darkness · Feb 13, 2008

From reading and studying, I have come to the conclusion that Jesus (Historical) did not consider himself to be God. If you read the synoptic Gospels you will be hard pressed to find anything showing Jesus as the Omnipotent Ruler of the Universe. Jesus saw himself as God's messiah on the Earth, which is why he can make such grand statements as saying he will judge the Earth. He saw God as a loving Father but more of an abstraction; God was that highest good and ultimate justice. Remember, most of Jesus' followers were the downtrodden, who hated "the man." Jesus' mission ended rather quickly when he was crucified and then Paul comes along. Paul has a vision on the Road to Damascus and becomes a Christian, whom he used to persecute. He subsequently becomes Christendom's greatest preacher and whom I consider to be the true Father of Christianity. I cannot tell what Paul believed about Jesus. Sometimes he says Jesus is God and then at other times he separates Jesus from God. He probably was simply trying to make sense of everything and wasn't quite sure what was the Truth, even though he pretended to be all-knowing. The Gospel of John strikes me as a Gnostic text, though I am no expert in Gnosticism. The Gnostic idea that everything is an emanation of the Divine could explain why Jesus says he and his disciples are One with God.

Dirty Penguin · Feb 13, 2008

Dentonz said:
At least 17 times in the gospels Jesus uses the term in "my name" referring to himself. He instructs that there is authority and power in his name. We all know that all power is given by God

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. It was Yeshua that said "All power was given to him, in heaven and in earth".....If he is God then power would not need to be given. If he is God then who can give him power?

And so what if he said "in my name"....? That proves nothing.

Dentonz said:
and that all prophets recognize that they have no power of their own. So if Jesus ever did say that there was power in his name, he was making himself at least equal with God.

This is nonsense. He most certainly said his power was given to him from his god. When, in the scripture, they charged him with making himself equal to God he went through great lenghts to refute that claim.

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Yeshua was here on earth so what did he see God do? He's talking about pre-existence. Before coming here his god taught him, before coming here his god commanded him what he should say. He learned the things he knew from his god.

Dentonz said:
If that assumption is correct; the view that Jesus is God would support the authority in his name. However, if you hold the view that he is not God; then you must believe that he committed blasphemy and was a liar and a false prophet.

Again, this is nonsense. He never called himself God nor did he teach his followers he was God. They didn't even think he was God so what blasphemy did he commit? Since he never saw himself as God and always taught that God was beyond him, in heaven and on earth, what lie did he tell? He said God was the true god and he was the messiah who God sent. He also said God was greater than him and God was greater than all. That is a clear and direct statement...

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and YESHUA THE MESSIAH, whom YOU HAVE SENT.

Dentonz said:
You can not hold Jesus as a credible prophet of God if you do not accept his divinity.

Divinity is not in question. One does not have to be deity in order to be divine.

Dirty Penguin · Feb 13, 2008

Darkness said:
From reading and studying, I have come to the conclusion that Jesus (Historical) did not consider himself to be God. If you read the synoptic Gospels you will be hard pressed to find anything showing Jesus as the Omnipotent Ruler of the Universe. Jesus saw himself as God's messiah on the Earth, which is why he can make such grand statements as saying he will judge the Earth. He saw God as a loving Father but more of an abstraction; God was that highest good and ultimate justice. Remember, most of Jesus' followers were the downtrodden, who hated "the man." Jesus' mission ended rather quickly when he was crucified and then Paul comes along. Paul has a vision on the Road to Damascus and becomes a Christian, whom he used to persecute. He subsequently becomes Christendom's greatest preacher and whom I consider to be the true Father of Christianity. I cannot tell what Paul believed about Jesus. Sometimes he says Jesus is God and then at other times he separates Jesus from God. He probably was simply trying to make sense of everything and wasn't quite sure what was the Truth, even though he pretended to be all-knowing. The Gospel of John strikes me as a Gnostic text, though I am no expert in Gnosticism. The Gnostic idea that everything is an emanation of the Divine could explain why Jesus says he and his disciples are One with God.

Agreed.............

Dirty Penguin · Feb 14, 2008

Luke 24:39-42
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]39 Look at my hands. Look at my feet. You can see that it's really me. Touch me and make sure that I am not a ghost, because ghosts don't have bodies, as you see that I do!"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]
Does this change anything? He appeared before them in the flesh and flat out said he wasn't a spirit

40 As he spoke, he held out his hands for them to see, and he showed them his feet.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]
41 Still they stood there doubting[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica], [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]filled with joy and wonder. Then he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]
Does this help? He ate food. Didn't know spirits could eat food. And if you believe they can.....what is the purpose?

42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish,

Just my opinion
[/FONT]

is jesus god ?

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