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is jesus god ?
- Thread starter musharraf
- Start date
from:-http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html
Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God:
The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
There's plenty more there.............
Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God:
The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
There's plenty more there.............
Francine
Well-Known Member
John 5:[23] That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
:ignore::run::canoe::sleep:
Jesus did claim to be God, particularly in The Gospel of John.
But wouldn't this go into a debates forum?
But wouldn't this go into a debates forum?
Greetings musharraf,
I would have to beg to differ you on several counts. First, Jesus did claim to be God when he claimed to be "I am" in John 8:58. According to Greek scholar A. T. Robertson, "Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God" (Word Pictures in the New Testament, 5:158-59). Second, Jesus' deity is attested in his ability to do things that only God could do (i.e., raise the dead, give life, forgive sins, etc.). Third, Jesus disciples and apostles attest to his deity in the declarations they made about him (Jn. 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8). Fourth, even Jesus' archenemy, the devil attested to his deity when he tempted him in the wilderness when he said, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread" (Matt. 4:3). Since the context shows that Satan knew exactly who Jesus was, the conditional "if" is better understood as "since," and that Satan was manipulating Jesus to do that which was contrary to his nature, rather than attempting to prove to Jesus that he was not the Son of God, which is an allusion to deity.
So, with all due respect, Jesus not only declared himself God through his "I am" statements, but several others who knew Jesus, his works, and his nature, recognized him as God as well.
w0w solam , peace be unto u all
i ask for a verse and here is many , after reading all these reply ,i realized how important the context is , thanx my dear friends for your reply.
what i understant is,there is many ambigoues staements in the bible (new testiment ) which assume to be for divinity of christ which he himself spoken (the red letter bible) but in context, when i read those verses i didnt find a single verse where he claim to be ;God almighty; or equal to him.
lets take verse one by one if you people donot mind,
'I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE'
THIS IS THE VERSE WHICH CHRISTIANS QUATE OUT OF CONTEXT GLOBALY
LETS SEE THE CONTEXT , AFTER CONTEXT YOU TELL ME THAT STILL THIS VERSE SPOKE ABOUT DIVINITY OF CHRIST ?
for the context, I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE'- you have to go to the Gospel of John, Ch. No.10, Verse No. 23,
CH.-NO 10 ';23 Jesus walked into the temple, in Solomons porch.
10;24 and the Jews came around him and asked him. How long does thou make us doubt? - If thou art the Christ, tell us plainly.
10;25 Verse No.25 says, I told you, but you believe me not - the works that I do in my fathers name, - they bear witness of me.
10;26 , you believe not because you are not my sheep, as I said unto you
( The Jews, they are asking Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) that Why dont you speak plainly?. So he tells them that Yes I am the Messiah - I have told you clearly, but because you are not my sheep, you dont believe in me.)
10;27 Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) continues saying that My sheep - they hear my voice, and I know them - and they follow me.
10;28 I give them eternal life - no man can pluck them out of my hand, and they shall not perish.
10;29 My father who giveth to me, He is greater than all - No man can pluck them out of my fathers hand.
Then Verse No. 30 says, I and my father are one
Any person who has little bit sense can make out, I and my father are one doesnt mean one - as one person. It means one is purpose
Verse No.28 says, No man can pluck them out of my hand Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) says- No man can pluck them out of my hand.
Verse No.29 is saying. No man can pluck them out of my fathers hand means no man can pluck them out of eithers hand .
Verse No.30 says I and my father are one in purpose.
Both Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) and Almighty God - they are one in purpose.
If I say that my father is a doctor Even I am a medical doctor. . If I say, I and my father are one - What does it mean? It means one in purpose - As medical profession, my father is a doctor - Even I am a doctor. It doesnt mean that I and my father are one. It means my father is a medical doctor - even I am a medical doctor.
. But Christians say No.. No it means one - actual Unity. So we say Okay, you say actual unity let us read further
If you go ahead in the Gospel of John, Ch. No.17, Verse No.21, it says that, Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) said that Ye all of them are one - My father in me, and I in thee, we all are one.
Does it mean that God Almighty, is in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is in all his 12 disciples. So there will be 14 gods - Jesus Christ, God Almighty, and 12 disciples.
The same one is used there, and here. If you go to the source, the same word is used - If you go to the Greek the same word is used - So does it mean you have 14 gods?
And among those disiples, Judas was a traitor -. Even he is God?
Thomas doubted Jesus Christ (peace be upon him ) - is he God?
Peter - Jesus Christ says is satanic?- Is he also God? No, - all of them, God Almighty - Jesus Christ and the Apostles, are one in purpose
they are same. Again if you go 2 verses ahead - Gospel of John, Ch. 17, Verse 23, says that, I am in thee, and you are in me he tells the disciples. Does it make all them God? No! It means one in purpose.
But then Christians will say, I have quoted the first part... why dont you quote after that... after Verse No.30 - Gospel of John Chapter 10. Lets go ahead -
Gospel of John, Ch. No. 10, Verse No.31. says, And Jews picked up stones again, to stone at Jesus (peace be upon him) Verse No. 32, says And Jesus (peace be upon him) asked them
for which of the good works of my father, do you stone me? Verse No. 33, says that We dont stone you for any good works, but because you blashpheme being a man, you call yourself God that is why we stone you.
the Jews say that see he is trying to blaspheme, calling himself God. Good riddance - they want to kill him - good riddance.
The Christians say ooh! the Jews called him God Almighty - See they understood him correctly - for redemption. One wants for redemption - they are calling him God - the other group of people for good riddance.
But the answer is given in the next verse - Verse no. 34, of John Ch. 10,
jesus says, that Is it not mentioned in your Scriptures that ye are gods?
and if the person to whom the word of God came if he says god - the Scripture is not broken.
. If you check up in the Bible, in the Psalms, Ch. No. 82, Verse No.6, does say that, Ye are gods.
. So Jesus Christ gave the answer, that the person to whom the Word of God came, if you call him God, it is not blaspheme. It is meaning that they are one in purpose.
HE CLEARLY TOLD THEM THAT HE IS USING THE LANGUAGE OF SCRIPTURE IN WHICH THE JEWS WERE CALLED GOD
SO IF U USE THIS WORD FOR WHOOM ,THE SCRIPTURE HAS CAME IT IS NOT BLASHPHMY .
I HOPE THIS CONTEXT IS SUFFIECIENT FOR EVERY ONE TO UNDERSTANT THAT THIS VERSE IS NOT CLAIMING DIVINITY.
I KNOW THERE ARE MANY VERSES , WHICH YOU PEOPLE HAS QUOATED , BUT MY POINT IS THAT WE WILL GO TO ALL THOSE VERSES ONE BY ONE .
IF ANY ONE WANNA QUOATE FURTHER PLS GIVE CONTEXT .
SOLAM (PEACE BE UNTO YOU ALL )
i ask for a verse and here is many , after reading all these reply ,i realized how important the context is , thanx my dear friends for your reply.
what i understant is,there is many ambigoues staements in the bible (new testiment ) which assume to be for divinity of christ which he himself spoken (the red letter bible) but in context, when i read those verses i didnt find a single verse where he claim to be ;God almighty; or equal to him.
lets take verse one by one if you people donot mind,
'I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE'
THIS IS THE VERSE WHICH CHRISTIANS QUATE OUT OF CONTEXT GLOBALY
LETS SEE THE CONTEXT , AFTER CONTEXT YOU TELL ME THAT STILL THIS VERSE SPOKE ABOUT DIVINITY OF CHRIST ?
for the context, I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE'- you have to go to the Gospel of John, Ch. No.10, Verse No. 23,
CH.-NO 10 ';23 Jesus walked into the temple, in Solomons porch.
10;24 and the Jews came around him and asked him. How long does thou make us doubt? - If thou art the Christ, tell us plainly.
10;25 Verse No.25 says, I told you, but you believe me not - the works that I do in my fathers name, - they bear witness of me.
10;26 , you believe not because you are not my sheep, as I said unto you
( The Jews, they are asking Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) that Why dont you speak plainly?. So he tells them that Yes I am the Messiah - I have told you clearly, but because you are not my sheep, you dont believe in me.)
10;27 Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) continues saying that My sheep - they hear my voice, and I know them - and they follow me.
10;28 I give them eternal life - no man can pluck them out of my hand, and they shall not perish.
10;29 My father who giveth to me, He is greater than all - No man can pluck them out of my fathers hand.
Then Verse No. 30 says, I and my father are one
Any person who has little bit sense can make out, I and my father are one doesnt mean one - as one person. It means one is purpose
Verse No.28 says, No man can pluck them out of my hand Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) says- No man can pluck them out of my hand.
Verse No.29 is saying. No man can pluck them out of my fathers hand means no man can pluck them out of eithers hand .
Verse No.30 says I and my father are one in purpose.
Both Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) and Almighty God - they are one in purpose.
If I say that my father is a doctor Even I am a medical doctor. . If I say, I and my father are one - What does it mean? It means one in purpose - As medical profession, my father is a doctor - Even I am a doctor. It doesnt mean that I and my father are one. It means my father is a medical doctor - even I am a medical doctor.
. But Christians say No.. No it means one - actual Unity. So we say Okay, you say actual unity let us read further
If you go ahead in the Gospel of John, Ch. No.17, Verse No.21, it says that, Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) said that Ye all of them are one - My father in me, and I in thee, we all are one.
Does it mean that God Almighty, is in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is in all his 12 disciples. So there will be 14 gods - Jesus Christ, God Almighty, and 12 disciples.
The same one is used there, and here. If you go to the source, the same word is used - If you go to the Greek the same word is used - So does it mean you have 14 gods?
And among those disiples, Judas was a traitor -. Even he is God?
Thomas doubted Jesus Christ (peace be upon him ) - is he God?
Peter - Jesus Christ says is satanic?- Is he also God? No, - all of them, God Almighty - Jesus Christ and the Apostles, are one in purpose
they are same. Again if you go 2 verses ahead - Gospel of John, Ch. 17, Verse 23, says that, I am in thee, and you are in me he tells the disciples. Does it make all them God? No! It means one in purpose.
But then Christians will say, I have quoted the first part... why dont you quote after that... after Verse No.30 - Gospel of John Chapter 10. Lets go ahead -
Gospel of John, Ch. No. 10, Verse No.31. says, And Jews picked up stones again, to stone at Jesus (peace be upon him) Verse No. 32, says And Jesus (peace be upon him) asked them
for which of the good works of my father, do you stone me? Verse No. 33, says that We dont stone you for any good works, but because you blashpheme being a man, you call yourself God that is why we stone you.
the Jews say that see he is trying to blaspheme, calling himself God. Good riddance - they want to kill him - good riddance.
The Christians say ooh! the Jews called him God Almighty - See they understood him correctly - for redemption. One wants for redemption - they are calling him God - the other group of people for good riddance.
But the answer is given in the next verse - Verse no. 34, of John Ch. 10,
jesus says, that Is it not mentioned in your Scriptures that ye are gods?
and if the person to whom the word of God came if he says god - the Scripture is not broken.
. If you check up in the Bible, in the Psalms, Ch. No. 82, Verse No.6, does say that, Ye are gods.
. So Jesus Christ gave the answer, that the person to whom the Word of God came, if you call him God, it is not blaspheme. It is meaning that they are one in purpose.
HE CLEARLY TOLD THEM THAT HE IS USING THE LANGUAGE OF SCRIPTURE IN WHICH THE JEWS WERE CALLED GOD
SO IF U USE THIS WORD FOR WHOOM ,THE SCRIPTURE HAS CAME IT IS NOT BLASHPHMY .
I HOPE THIS CONTEXT IS SUFFIECIENT FOR EVERY ONE TO UNDERSTANT THAT THIS VERSE IS NOT CLAIMING DIVINITY.
I KNOW THERE ARE MANY VERSES , WHICH YOU PEOPLE HAS QUOATED , BUT MY POINT IS THAT WE WILL GO TO ALL THOSE VERSES ONE BY ONE .
IF ANY ONE WANNA QUOATE FURTHER PLS GIVE CONTEXT .
SOLAM (PEACE BE UNTO YOU ALL )
solam peace be unto u
is it not fir that we shall see the verse you quoted with context
john 5 verse 1 to 15 spoke about the healing of a lame persone by jesus you can read it .
verse 16 so, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God
LOOK HERE HOW JSUS SIMPLY SAID THAT THE FATHER WORK IN THIS DAY SO I AM TO WORKING WHAT WROUNG IN THIS VERSE ?
THE JEWS THEY MISUNDERSTOOD HIM THAT HE IS CLAIMING DIVINITY .THAT
HE IS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD . AND TH TRIED TO KILL HIM.
BUT IN THE NEXT FEW VERSES HE DEFENED HIMSELF, SEE BELOW !
19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
HE IS SAYING THEM THAT I AM NOT DOING THIS WITH MY OWN WHAT EVER FATHER TEEL ME I DO .IN OTHER WORD FATHER IS AGREE WITH ME TO DO THIS WORK ON SABATH.
20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
LOOK OT IS CLEARLY MENTION THAT FATHER HAS GIVEN THE POWER TO SON TO GIVE LIFE TO DEAD THAT ALL MAY HONOR THE SON .NOT TO MAKE HIM GOD OR EQUAL TO GOD, TO BELIEVE AND WORSHIP ONE TRUE GOD NOT WORSHIP HIMSELF(JESUS)
DONT YOU KNOW THE VERSE JESUS SAID
MY FATHR IS GREATER THAN I
MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN ALL
I CAST OUT DEVIL WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD
WITH THE FINGER OF GOD I CAST OUT DEVIL
N THE FOLLOWING VERSE IS THE END OF THE STORY WHICH YOU STARTED SEE
ICAN OF MY OWN SELF DO NOTHING WHTEVER I HEAR I JUDGE AND MY JUDEMENT IS JUST BECAUSE I SEEK NOT MY WILL BUT THE WILL OF FATHER WHO HAVE SENT ME .
DONT YOU READ THE
"And Jesus lifted up his
eyes (towards heaven) and said, Father, I thank thee
that THOU HAST HEARD ME. "And I know that THOU
HEAREST ME ALWAYS: but because of the people
which stand by I said my supplication aloud that
THEY MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me. "And
when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice,
lazarus, come forth "And he that was dead came
forth . . .JOHN 11 :41-43eyes (towards heaven) and said, Father, I thank thee
that THOU HAST HEARD ME. "And I know that THOU
HEAREST ME ALWAYS: but because of the people
which stand by I said my supplication aloud that
THEY MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me. "And
when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice,
lazarus, come forth "And he that was dead came
Who then gave life back to Lazarus? The answer is
"GOD!" For God heard the prayer of Jesus, as
always!",,,"GOD!" For God heard the prayer of Jesus, as
LISTEN NOW TO PETER'S TESTIMONY: YE MEN
of Israel (Jews!) hear these words; Jesus of
Nazareth, A MAN approved of God, , , _ (meaning a
prophet) among you by miracles and wonders and
signs, which GOD DID BY HIM in the midst of you, as
ye yourselves also know." ACTS 2:22
I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND WHICH HONOR HE IS TALKING ABOUT
solam peace be unto u
is it not fir that we shall see the verse you quoted with context
john 5 verse 1 to 15 spoke about the healing of a lame persone by jesus you can read it .
verse 16 so, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God
LOOK HERE HOW JSUS SIMPLY SAID THAT THE FATHER WORK IN THIS DAY SO I AM TO WORKING WHAT WROUNG IN THIS VERSE ?
THE JEWS THEY MISUNDERSTOOD HIM THAT HE IS CLAIMING DIVINITY .THAT
HE IS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL TO GOD . AND TH TRIED TO KILL HIM.
BUT IN THE NEXT FEW VERSES HE DEFENED HIMSELF, SEE BELOW !
19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
HE IS SAYING THEM THAT I AM NOT DOING THIS WITH MY OWN WHAT EVER FATHER TEEL ME I DO .IN OTHER WORD FATHER IS AGREE WITH ME TO DO THIS WORK ON SABATH.
20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
LOOK OT IS CLEARLY MENTION THAT FATHER HAS GIVEN THE POWER TO SON TO GIVE LIFE TO DEAD THAT ALL MAY HONOR THE SON .NOT TO MAKE HIM GOD OR EQUAL TO GOD, TO BELIEVE AND WORSHIP ONE TRUE GOD NOT WORSHIP HIMSELF(JESUS)
DONT YOU KNOW THE VERSE JESUS SAID
MY FATHR IS GREATER THAN I
MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN ALL
I CAST OUT DEVIL WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD
WITH THE FINGER OF GOD I CAST OUT DEVIL
N THE FOLLOWING VERSE IS THE END OF THE STORY WHICH YOU STARTED SEE
ICAN OF MY OWN SELF DO NOTHING WHTEVER I HEAR I JUDGE AND MY JUDEMENT IS JUST BECAUSE I SEEK NOT MY WILL BUT THE WILL OF FATHER WHO HAVE SENT ME .
DONT YOU READ THE
"And Jesus lifted up his
eyes (towards heaven) and said, Father, I thank thee
that THOU HAST HEARD ME. "And I know that THOU
HEAREST ME ALWAYS: but because of the people
which stand by I said my supplication aloud that
THEY MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me. "And
when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice,
lazarus, come forth "And he that was dead came
forth . . .JOHN 11 :41-43eyes (towards heaven) and said, Father, I thank thee
that THOU HAST HEARD ME. "And I know that THOU
HEAREST ME ALWAYS: but because of the people
which stand by I said my supplication aloud that
THEY MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me. "And
when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice,
lazarus, come forth "And he that was dead came
Who then gave life back to Lazarus? The answer is
"GOD!" For God heard the prayer of Jesus, as
always!",,,"GOD!" For God heard the prayer of Jesus, as
LISTEN NOW TO PETER'S TESTIMONY: YE MEN
of Israel (Jews!) hear these words; Jesus of
Nazareth, A MAN approved of God, , , _ (meaning a
prophet) among you by miracles and wonders and
signs, which GOD DID BY HIM in the midst of you, as
ye yourselves also know." ACTS 2:22
I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND WHICH HONOR HE IS TALKING ABOUT
SOLAM PEACE BE UNTO YOU
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Musharraf you are beating a dead horse here. This debate is ongoing here at http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/51381-jesus-god-flesh.html. Instead of starting a new one just jump in over there to share your thought. By the way...I agree with you that he not God. Nor did he imply it regardless of what others here keep saying it. Since this is not a debate area...what I said can be debated in that area.....
ironangel
Member
Jesus Christ is God manifested in the flesh, this is my belief.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (KJV)
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (KJV)
arthra
Baha'i
This is a comparative religion board so allow me to explain the Baha'i view of Jesus... Baha'is believe that the Attributes of God were perfectly reflected in Jesus and this without any effort..
Also that as a Manifestation of God, Jesus had three stations....
a physical station like that of any human being. He came from His mother's womb;
a rational soul, much like most peoples but was also unique and individual...Jesus calls Himself the Son of Man and identifies with humanity.
a Spirit, that is as the Holy Spirit ..in Arabic Jesus' title was Ruh'u'llah, Spirit of God. This part is eternal and explains why Jesus said: "Before Abraham was I am".
see
Part Three -- On the Powers and Conditions of the Manifestations of God
- Art
kai
ragamuffin
and how does that make sense to you come on look at the sentence it makes no sense
you would have to read the original scripture ,in its original language, with the mindset of the culture of the time ,to even begin to understand what that means
The implication is the Jesus is calling himself I am, the reason for Mohamed to expressed it differently is that he called God Allah and the Jews called Him I am, it must be considered that this discourse is addressed to Jews Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and He saw and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM!
The message was clear to them, Jesus is calling Himself God, the people that Jesus disputed with in this passage were experts in ancient scripture and languages, they got it in the way suggested that is why they attempted to kill Him. But it is Christian thing and not everybody can infer it from a superficial reading of the passage.
kai
ragamuffin
says you! can you read it in the original script, if not then you are only reading translation of a translation and then interpreting it with your 21st century mindset
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
The problem with this christian assertion is that it isn't read in context. If one truly takes the time to study the whole chapter in context they will see that Yeshua is not making the declaration that he is God and they will also find that the reason they wanted to kill him was because he said he existed before Abraham. Back in verse 8:37 is where we first hear Yeshua saying to them that they wanted to kill him. So it wasn't in 8:58. They wanted to kill him way before he said he existed before Abraham. The focus of the conversation is on Abraham. The descendants of Abraham had a great respect and love for him so for some young man to come along appearing to boast that he was greater than Abraham or knew Abraham before he existed was a great disrespect to them. An understanding of the greek that is being used clarifies that.
John 8:58
Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!
Strongs Greek Lexicon
ego
1473. ego eg-o' a primary pronoun of the first person I (only expressed when emphatic):--I, me.
eimi
1510. eimi i-mee' the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was
For me the question is, did Yeshua actually exist before Abraham and if he did does he reveal to us that he was God? Well to answer that question I look to this verse;
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify you, me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.
So the answer is yes he existed before Abraham but No, he does not reveal he is God rather he was with his god before the world was created. Additionally if you look at 17:5 at the end is that word (existed). Some render it as (was). It is the same word that is in John 8:58 (am). They mean the same thing. Yeshua (existed before Abraham). There was no declaration made by him calling himself God.
In Islam God is God and that's it. All of the prophets are considered rasullulah (Isa rasulullah, Muhammad rasulluah, Musa rasullulahh, Ibrahim rasullulah). Are they considered God or God in the flesh? No. Islam teaches that these men were blessed by Allah to speak the word of Allah.
Now one could make the same Argument that other prophets in the OT were God in the flesh and this theory was not exclusive to Yeshua. Reading the 1st chapter in the book of Haggai gives one the impression that Haggai is God incarnate. Do Jews or Christians believe that he is. Nope. In that book he is called God's Messenger and God's Prophet just like in Islam. Yeshua says the same thing about himself. He calls himself the servant of the master, the one that was sent. He calls himself a prophet as well.
John 3:34
For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure unto him.
John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his master; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Luke 13:13
Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
If we look upon Yeshua with mystery then we will be mystified but if we look upon him with open eyes then the simple truth as to who he was and who sent him is revealed clearly with no mystery.