Record number of Britons go abroad for healthcare.

[jeffrey]

I'd love to see a National Health plan in the U.S. I was against it because of the negative swing our government put on it. When I married my wife, who is English, I got a whole new perspective of NH. I cannot afford Health insurance. At $165 a week with a $2,000 deductible per person... And from what my wife tells me is the biggest problem that England has with their NH is people from other nations coming to England for their free NH without paying into the system.

 

[mcteethinator]

LOL. nice attempt at spin...

:biglaugh:

We do it here too.

Now, would you rather have private hospitals, but public hospitals for people that kind of, can't afford it? Or are you just gonna keep calling me an idiot?

 

[Fluffy]

Those who cannot afford cheap should be taken care of by charity, not the government.

And this charity should be funded by who? How will you ensure the charity will be able to bring healthcare to all?

And from what my wife tells me is the biggest problem that England has with their NH is people from other nations coming to England for their free NH without paying into the system.

That is certainly the view advocated by the Daily Mail and BNP. I feel that they are wrong and push this view to further their agenda of hatred towards all things not White Protestant and British.

Not that this means the view is not justifiable. Just that one must be extra careful in adopting the view since many sources and "facts" have been fabricated in the attempt to further this agenda.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

And from what my wife tells me is the biggest problem that England has with their NH is people from other nations coming to England for their free NH without paying into the system.

There are several little known facts about the national health service.
1) If you are resident in the UK You must pay contributions through the national insurance scheme. Foreign nationals that do not, can be treated in an emergency but will be charged a fee for the service. Some years ago things were indeed free for the asking.
2)People from the EEC are treated under the national scheme, as are the British when in EEC countries.( you need to apply for a claim form before travelling)
3) Any one involved in a road accident can be charged for their treatment... it will be paid from the drivers car insurance.( it is an insured loss)
4) there is no direct link between national insurance contributions and the national health service.
Money collected from all forms of tax go into the national tax pot.
The health service like other services is paid out of the national pot, at the rate decided at the national budget.

 

[Comprehend]

And this charity should be funded by who? How will you ensure the charity will be able to bring healthcare to all?

By people who can afford to donate to the fund and choose to. If by "ensure" you mean "force" I wouldn't allow it (if it were up to me), it should be encouraged but not forced.

My church is able to run a number of programs like this on a worldwide scale and has done so for a long time. The program could be copied on a national scale.

 

[Comprehend]

We do it here too.

Now, would you rather have private hospitals, but public hospitals for people that kind of, can't afford it? Or are you just gonna keep calling me an idiot?

I would rather have a free market so that almost everyone could afford the better private care.

 

[Mister_T]

It offers basic primary care from the state:




http://www.southafrica.info/ess_info/sa_glance/health/health.htm

Notice that the public sector is having problems and the private sector is rapidly growing.... surprise surprise. It's basic economics, it will happen everywhere "free" healthcare is offered.
This is why Canada tried to make a law against it's citizens paying for private healthcare.

And you don't think that South Africa's ever-growing poverty level and horrible economy plays a major role in government resources being stretched to their limits? If people there are struggling to make a living, I seriously doubt they could afford private healthcare.

 

[Fluffy]

By people who can afford to donate to the fund and choose to. If by "ensure" you mean "force" I wouldn't allow it (if it were up to me), it should be encouraged but not forced.

My church is able to run a number of programs like this on a worldwide scale and has done so for a long time. The program could be copied on a national scale.

No I don't mean force because I don't think you can force a charity to take action nor people to donate to that charity. Therefore, my question remains: since you cannot force the charity to provide free healthcare to those who cannot afford it, how will you ensure that it will be able to?

 

[Comprehend]

And you don't think that South Africa's ever-growing poverty level and horrible economy plays a major role in government resources being stretched to their limits? If people there are struggling to make a living, I seriously doubt they could afford private healthcare.

Of course the economy, and poverty etc plays a role, but I think the poverty and economic situation are a result of the same bad socialist policies that cause the poor healthcare situation.

If you want a good economy, make a free market.

If you want a good healthcare system, make a free market.

The economic principles of both are the same.

 

[Comprehend]

No I don't mean force because I don't think you can force a charity to take action nor people to donate to that charity. Therefore, my question remains: since you cannot force the charity to provide free healthcare to those who cannot afford it, how will you ensure that it will be able to?

Sorry. I didn't make my answer very clear.

I don't think it can be ensured. We have to rely on people choosing to help and as I have suggested, the LDS model has shown that it can work. Our fast offering/charity system is able to provide welfare for members all over the world with so much left over that we spend hundreds of millions in cash and goods helping out those who aren't members of our church too.

Welfare

Humanitarian

We also don't just leave people on welfare, we train them with job skills and help them find employment, we help them pay for college and a number of other things.
It is a great system and works very well. Compare what we do with how the DMV operates...

 

[Mister_T]

Of course the economy, and poverty etc plays a role, but I think the poverty and economic situation are a result of the same bad socialist policies that cause the poor healthcare situation.

If you want a good economy, make a free market.

If you want a good healthcare system, make a free market.

The economic principles of both are the same.

But government issued healthcare works fine in other countries. To say that South Africa's government healthcare problems are a result of having government issued healthcare doesn't seem logical to me.

 

[Mathematician]

right.... my intention is to discuss socialized healthcare..... so why do you keep trying to drag the US into it?

Funny that you only bring up the UK model, and it still outperforms the US... Want to talk about Germany? Norway? Schf-eden? Denmark?

I am talking about socialized healthcare. I'm talking about how it outperforms the "free" market.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Of course the economy, and poverty etc plays a role, but I think the poverty and economic situation are a result of the same bad socialist policies that cause the poor healthcare situation.

What bad socialist government policies causes the Poverty and resulting bad health and living standards in the USA. They are more extreme in nature, than any in Europe.

 

[Mathematician]

but I think the poverty and economic situation are a result of the same bad socialist policies that cause the poor healthcare situation.

How ridiculous. Europe is by far more "socialist" than Europe and Europeans aren't dealing with half the crap we get from private insurers. It's the market. When a service means life or death to someone, there is no room for "compromising" between the buyer and seller. This is proven time and time again with private prisons and private elderly homes and private armies.

Anarcho-capitalists actually endorse Somalia as a working model of success... I'm hoping most free-marketers see the limit to their ideology before that point.

Your complaints about inefficiency deal with bueraucracy, not public goods. Many European governments, while leaning towards "socialism," are quite decentralized [the only exceptions I know of are France and *surprise* the UK]. Services can be libertarian and collectively owned. In fact that was the original intention of those who founded the word libertarian. Not for a few individuals scattered across the country to screw over consumers from something they needed.

 

[Comprehend]

But government issued healthcare works fine in other countries. .

um... I would hope that the information I have provided is evidence that tends to show government issued healthcare in other countries does not work fine. That was kind of the point of the thread.

To say that South Africa's government healthcare problems are a result of having government issued healthcare doesn't seem logical to me

me too. I didn't say that.

 

[Mister_T]

um... I would hope that the information I have provided is evidence that tends to show government issued healthcare in other countries does not work fine. That was kind of the point of the thread.

Fine does not mean perfect.

me too. I didn't say that.

What is the point you were getting at then?

 

[Comprehend]

Funny that you only bring up the UK model, and it still outperforms the US... Want to talk about Germany? Norway? Schf-eden? Denmark?

I am talking about socialized healthcare. I'm talking about how it outperforms the "free" market.

gene, if you want me to continue replying to you, please try to pay attention to our discussion. This is getting annoying.

The US does not have a free market system, it is a hybrid system.

We can go through each country by itself if you like but we'll have to do them each one at a time as each country is quite different. Since this is my thread, we will start with the UK. When we are done, we will do Canada. When Canada is done, you may select the next country.

 

[Comprehend]

What bad socialist government policies causes the Poverty and resulting bad health and living standards in the USA. They are more extreme in nature, than any in Europe.

What is "they"? As you have written it, it refers to "bad socialist government policies" and then your statement doesn't make any sense.

 

[Comprehend]

How ridiculous. Europe is by far more "socialist" than Europe and Europeans aren't dealing with half the crap we get from private insurers. It's the market. When a service means life or death to someone, there is no room for "compromising" between the buyer and seller. This is proven time and time again with private prisons and private elderly homes and private armies.

Anarcho-capitalists actually endorse Somalia as a working model of success... I'm hoping most free-marketers see the limit to their ideology before that point.

Your complaints about inefficiency deal with bueraucracy, not public goods. Many European governments, while leaning towards "socialism," are quite decentralized [the only exceptions I know of are France and *surprise* the UK]. Services can be libertarian and collectively owned. In fact that was the original intention of those who founded the word libertarian. Not for a few individuals scattered across the country to screw over consumers from something they needed.

"Europe is by far more 'socialist' than Europe..."

Wow. Thanks gene... :cover:

I'll have to ponder the deep point you are making here.

 

[Comprehend]

Fine does not mean perfect.

meaning what?

What is the point you were getting at then?

Somebody had said that South africa's healthcare (HC) problems were also a result of other issues such as poverty, a poor economy, etc.

I replied that the secondary problems the poster listed were in my opinion a result of the same type of socialist policies. Meaning, socialist principles that cause problems in the HC industry (price controls, asset redistribution, etc) cause the poverty and a poor economy.