Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

[jimb]

Failure to respond to my posts, I never said the Bible was a textbook. Yes, you believe the Bible teaches spiritual truths, history as believed by the authors and their laws,

The only reason you say I do not understand the Bible is because you claim I do not believe as you do. Belief does not translate to the ONLY understanding of scripture.

You are looking for the Pentateuch to be "accurate history"

Here are your words (with my emphases): "Of course, the authors of the Pentateuch, believed them to be accurate history and Hebrew Law and ritual including Leviticus and Deuteronomy. There is no reason I can come up with that the authors believed otherwise. The authors made no reference to the writings being symbolic or anecdotal or subject to personal interpretation. I do not consider my interpretation and understanding does the absolute and does not negate the possibility of other interpretation

My interpretation is that the Pentateuch is the beliefs, and the knowledge of the authors in ~600 BCE, and recorded what they believed at the time and culture, I do not believe the history described in the Pentateuch is not historically accurate, even though it may be based dome events in history before it was compiled after 600 BCE. I believe the dating of the compilation of the Pentateuch is based on extensive evidence."

 

[shunyadragon]

You are looking for the Pentateuch to be "accurate history"

ONLY from the perspective of the authors at the time they wrote It made it clear I do not consider it literal history.

Here are your words (with my emphases): "Of course, the authors of the Pentateuch, believed them to be accurate history and Hebrew Law and ritual including Leviticus and Deuteronomy. There is no reason I can come up with that the authors believed otherwise. The authors made no reference to the writings being symbolic or anecdotal or subject to personal interpretation. I do not consider my interpretation and understanding does the absolute and does not negate the possibility of other interpretation.

True as believed at the time they wrote it.

My interpretation is that the Pentateuch is the beliefs, and the knowledge of the authors in ~600 BCE, and recorded what they believed at the time and culture, I do not believe the history described in the Pentateuch is not historically accurate, even though it may be based dome events in history before it was compiled after 600 BCE. I believe the dating of the compilation of the Pentateuch is based on extensive evidence."

Sorry for the typo my post should read:

My interpretation is that the Pentateuch is the beliefs, and the knowledge of the authors in ~600 BCE, and recorded what they believed at the time and culture, I do not believe the history described in the Pentateuch is historically accurate, even though it may be based some events in history before it was compiled after 600 BCE. I believe the dating of the compilation of the Pentateuch is based on extensive evidence."

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Failure to respond to my posts, I never said the Bible was a textbook. Yes, you believe the Bible teaches spiritual truths, history as believed by the authors and their laws,

The only reason you say I do not understand the Bible is because you claim I do not believe as you do. Belief does not translate to the ONLY understanding of scripture.

You're not the only one who has been accused of not understanding the Bible because your interpretation of it differs from his preferred interpretation. I'm glad to see that you are taking this accusation with a grain of salt. I also think that you've been gracious in this discussion, and I commend you for it.

 

[2ndpillar]

The authors of the NT also believed it was a literal history.

And who were the authors of the NT. Luke is an undescribed individual who stated he just wrote down stories told to him by unspecified individuals. Yeshua said you needed two witness to establish any matter (Mt 18;16 & Deut 19:15). Do your "google" search and find out that half of the chapters supposedly written by Paul, were most probably not written by Paul. Who were they written by? Do your google search as to who wrote 2 Peter. The clergy will say Simon Peter, the theologians will say most probably not Peter. With respect to the church, Paul stands or falls by virtue of 2 Peter 3:15. Did Paul witness any of the testimony of Yeshua? What history is he giving other than his own, which would be the history of the Gentile church, which has a use by date per Hosea 3. If you read Matthew 13, you will find Yeshua describing the coming "kingdom of heaven" in around 12 parables, all saying the same thing in different variations, and mostly in the form of prophesy of future events, not "literal history". That "history" has not played itself out. Revelation was written by a bond servant named John. That is a little light with regards to identification. Could that be John the Baptist, or in other words Elijah, or even John Smith? That Elijah was a tricky fellow, he seems to come and go. You apparently don't know who the "authors" were, much less what they thought. Your foundation seems to be one of "sand" (Mt 7:26).

 

[2ndpillar]

ONLY from the perspective of the authors at the time they wrote It made it clear I do not consider it literal history.


True as believed at the time they wrote it.

Sorry for the typo my post should read:

My interpretation is that the Pentateuch is the beliefs, and the knowledge of the authors in ~600 BCE, and recorded what they believed at the time and culture, I do not believe the history described in the Pentateuch is historically accurate, even though it may be based some events in history before it was compiled after 600 BCE. I believe the dating of the compilation of the Pentateuch is based on extensive evidence."

The earliest existent partial copies of the Old Testament are dated to the Qumran findings dated much later than 600 B.C.. If you are referring to books written supposedly from memory, then you will also be a fan of the Koran. There are around 100 different versions of the Koran with at least 96,000 discrepancies. What form was the original Pentateuch written and what form is it now written? Is your NT without error, or were there no errors or additions and subtractions? Maybe you need to go further out on a limb. Did the early scribes ever make "typos", or miss a dash or dot?

 

[jimb]

ONLY from the perspective of the authors at the time they wrote It made it clear I do not consider it literal history.


True as believed at the time they wrote it.

Sorry for the typo my post should read:

My interpretation is that the Pentateuch is the beliefs, and the knowledge of the authors in ~600 BCE, and recorded what they believed at the time and culture, I do not believe the history described in the Pentateuch is historically accurate, even though it may be based some events in history before it was compiled after 600 BCE. I believe the dating of the compilation of the Pentateuch is based on extensive evidence."

So, which other parts of God's written word do you believe are inaccurate?

Why do you think that the Bible is a historical and/or scientific textbook? We have plenty of those, and they're being continually revised, but God's written word has been accepted as truth for thousands of years.

 

[shunyadragon]

So, which other parts of God's written word do you believe are inaccurate?

I go by the evidence of science, academic history and archaeology as premise for understanding scripture.

The topic of the thread is an issue where as stated many do not use science, academic history as a tarting point to understand scripture.

Let's deal with the Pentateuch as the first issue. One at a time. By the above statement yu consider the Pentateuch God's actual written word. That is beginning.

Why do you think that the Bible is a historical and/or scientific textbook?

Again, I do not consider the Bible as a historical or scientific textbook. I agree with the academic perspective that the Bible is composed of narratives written in the context of history from the perspective of those that wrote, compiled and edited them over time, and not a historical record in and of itself,

The primary judge from an independent perspective for ALL ancient scriptures and all ancient written records is science, academic history and archaeology.

Yes. like the scripture of all religions they contain spiritual guidance,

The scripture of any religion and other ancient writings cannot stand alone and justify itself.

We have plenty of those, and they're being continually revised, but God's written word has been accepted as truth for thousands of years.

By those that believe in any one of the many variable interpretations of th escripture.

The scripture of all religions cannot be immune to scrutiny by independent sources of science, academic history and archaeology.

 

[2ndpillar]

I go by the evidence of science, academic history and archaeology as premise for understanding scripture.

The topic of the thread is an issue where as stated many do not use science, academic history as a tarting point to understand scripture.

Let's deal with the Pentateuch as the first issue. One at a time. By the above statement yu consider the Pentateuch God's actual written word. That is beginning.

Science, history, and archeology change daily. What was thought of as fact yesterday, is no longer fact today. What "God" actually wrote (written) was the 10 Commandments. Those 10 Commandments haven't changed, nor are they hard to understand. Everything else is trimmings. The prophets main prophecies are about the coming kingdom, which is focused upon a combined Israel (Ezekiel 37). They mention the Gentiles (nations), but in the end, the kingdoms of the nations will be "crushed" (Daniel 2:45), and ruled over by the "Word of God" (Revelation 19:14-15).

 

[shunyadragon]

Science, history, and archeology change daily. What was thought of as fact yesterday, is no longer fact today.

False no science does not change daily. The knowledge of science evolves positively with new information. Fact are objective evidence and do not change. New facts may be discovered that add to the knowledge like new books in a library,

Your intentional ignorance of science is compounding.

What "God" actually wrote (written) was the 10 Commandments. Those 10 Commandments haven't changed, nor are they hard to understand. Everything else is trimmings. The prophets main prophecies are about the coming kingdom, which is focused upon a combined Israel (Ezekiel 37). They mention the Gentiles (nations), but in the end, the kingdoms of the nations will be "crushed" (Daniel 2:45), and ruled over by the "Word of God" (Revelation 19:14-15).

First, what you call the ten commandments is mostly found in various religions East and West including Confucianism. Buddhism, Hinduism and Taoism in the East.

Second, slavery is allowed by law in the same scriptures as the ten commandments and practiced over the millennia until recently, and often justified with references to scripture.

The Baha'i Faith is the First Abrahamic religion to outlaw all kinds of slavery.

 

[shunyadragon]

The earliest existent partial copies of the Old Testament are dated to the Qumran findings dated much later than 600 B.C..

False, Qumran findings are dated only to the third century BCE and first century AD, The reasons to extrapolate parts to earlie like Deuteronomy and 2 Kings and 2 Chronicles is some discoveries of partial texts.

The Qumran Library - Scrolls from the Dead Sea | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

The scrolls, and scroll fragments, recovered in the Qumran comprise a library covering the regions history from the third century B.C.E. to 68 C.E.

www.loc.gov

The scrolls and scroll fragments recovered in the Qumran environs represent a voluminous body of Jewish documents, a veritable "library", dating from the third century B.C.E. to 68 C.E. Unquestionably, the "library," which is the greatest manuscript find of the twentieth century, demonstrates the rich literary activity ...

If you are referring to books written supposedly from memory, then you will also be a fan of the Koran. There are around 100 different versions of the Koran with at least 96,000 discrepancies.

We are not at present dealing with the Koran, but yes there are similar issues dating the texts of the Koran,

What form was the original Pentateuch written and what form is it now written?

No known texts before ~600 BCE. Linguistic and text research traces the Pentateuch back through the literary works of the Sumerians, Babylonians, Phoenician/Canaanite texts found in their libraries. The Hebrew written language evolved from Phoenician/Canaanite language, and did not exist before ~600 BCE.

Is your NT without error, or were there no errors or additions and subtractions? Maybe you need to go further out on a limb. Did the early scribes ever make "typos", or miss a dash or dot?

 

[shunyadragon]

And who were the authors of the NT. Luke is an undescribed individual who stated he just wrote down stories told to him by unspecified individuals.

Yes the authors of gospels are unknown and yes they were progressively edited and redacted, I am not defending the gospels as accurate. Nonetheless the authors ad th eChurch Fathers believed the Pentateuch was a literal hisotry.

Yeshua said you needed two witness to establish any matter (Mt 18;16 & Deut 19:15). Do your "google" search and find out that half of the chapters supposedly written by Paul, were most probably not written by Paul. Who were they written by? Do your google search as to who wrote 2 Peter. The clergy will say Simon Peter, the theologians will say most probably not Peter. With respect to the church, Paul stands or falls by virtue of 2 Peter 3:15. Did Paul witness any of the testimony of Yeshua? What history is he giving other than his own, which would be the history of the Gentile church, which has a use by date per Hosea 3. If you read Matthew 13, you will find Yeshua describing the coming "kingdom of heaven" in around 12 parables, all saying the same thing in different variations, and mostly in the form of prophesy of future events, not "literal history". That "history" has not played itself out. Revelation was written by a bond servant named John. That is a little light with regards to identification. Could that be John the Baptist, or in other words Elijah, or even John Smith? That Elijah was a tricky fellow, he seems to come and go. You apparently don't know who the "authors" were, much less what they thought. Your foundation seems to be one of "sand" (Mt 7:26).

Your going on and on about the problems with the NT, and yes many of these problems are real. and not the issue at present.

Actual it is acknowledged historically that Jesus Christ as Yeshua lived at the time the gospels account, but likewise your assertions of belief have likewise a weak foundation in history.

Back to the Pentateuch which you are not responding well to. The authors, compilers, and editors ate time believed it was literal history. laws, teachings and the basis for rituals. It is the foundation of Judaism.

 

[Elihoenai]

2 Corinthians 3:6

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


The Holy Scriptures/Bible Sacred Writings from Genesis to Revelations has an Inner/Esoteric and Outer/Exoteric meaning. The Exoteric meaning is the Literal and Historical Dead Letter that the Natural Man Cherishes. Only Elohim/God can Reveal to you the Inspired Spiritual and Timeless Inner/Esoteric meaning.

The Dead Letter Kills, Murdering Other People, Committing Suicide and Killing Animals. Destroying is an aspect of Elohim/God that these Dead Letter Killers Manifesting.


Example of Seeing through the Dead Letter:


Ancient Animal Sacrifice Ritual Makes a Modern Comeback

Jews recreate biblical Passover sacrifice

 

[Ajax]

2 Corinthians 3:6

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


The Holy Scriptures/Bible Sacred Writings from Genesis to Revelations has an Inner/Esoteric and Outer/Exoteric meaning. The Exoteric meaning is the Literal and Historical Dead Letter that the Natural Man Cherishes. Only Elohim/God can Reveal to you the Inspired Spiritual and Timeless Inner/Esoteric meaning.

The Dead Letter Kills, Murdering Other People, Committing Suicide and Killing Animals. Destroying is an aspect of Elohim/God that these Dead Letter Killers Manifesting.

Simply said, according to all Christian denominations, God is the same in both OT and NT and does not change. If God ordered sacrifices (Leviticus 4:35, 5:10, 16:1-6) and Jesus claimed that nothing will ever change from the Law, then either the OT, or Paul is lying. Jesus could never had told Paul, as he claimed, that the Law is needless and evil. Whether you accept it or not, is irrelevant.
As for the "Inner/Esoteric and Outer/Exoteric meaning" is just a propaganda to justify the huge contradictions in the Bible. Apologists are simply trying to find excuses to justify their knowingly false conclusion. See message #1173

 

[jimb]

I go by the evidence of science, academic history and archaeology as premise for understanding scripture.

The topic of the thread is an issue where as stated many do not use science, academic history as a tarting point to understand scripture.

Let's deal with the Pentateuch as the first issue. One at a time. By the above statement yu consider the Pentateuch God's actual written word. That is beginning.


Again, I do not consider the Bible as a historical or scientific textbook. I agree with the academic perspective that the Bible is composed of narratives written in the context of history from the perspective of those that wrote, compiled and edited them over time, and not a historical record in and of itself,

The primary judge from an independent perspective for ALL ancient scriptures and all ancient written records is science, academic history and archaeology.

Yes. like the scripture of all religions they contain spiritual guidance,

The scripture of any religion and other ancient writings cannot stand alone and justify itself.


By those that believe in any one of the many variable interpretations of th escripture.

The scripture of all religions cannot be immune to scrutiny by independent sources of science, academic history and archaeology.

Your first and last sentences clearly show that you have no understanding of the Bible: it's contents or meaning. I feel sorry for you.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Precisely, but the spiritual discernment will definitely arise even if it was not there at the beginning, so long as one sincerely seeks. Seek and you will find!

 

[Ajax]

Precisely, but the spiritual discernment will definitely arise even if it was not there at the beginning, so long as one sincerely seeks. Seek and you will find!

Well, I and many others were Christians, sought and studied the Bible and the result was that we became agnostics and atheists.
Can you define what exactly is "spiritual discernment" and how can one be certain that it exists/intervenes?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Well, I and many others were Christians, sought and studied the Bible and the result was that we became agnostics and atheists.
Can you define what exactly is "spiritual discernment" and how can one be certain that it exists/intervenes?

Spiritual discernment is understanding that arises without thought. Thought is the opposite if spiritual discernment, one's mind must be free of thought to apprehend spiritual reality.

 

[Ajax]

Spiritual discernment is understanding that arises without thought. Thought is the opposite if spiritual discernment, one's mind must be free of thought to apprehend spiritual reality.

OK, but very strange...all people have thoughts. It's impossible not to have them.
But how can one be certain that it exists/intervenes? How do you know that it has arisen as you said?

 

[jimb]

Spiritual discernment is understanding that arises without thought. Thought is the opposite if spiritual discernment, one's mind must be free of thought to apprehend spiritual reality.

Basically I agree with you, but I don't think that one's mind must be free of thought to apprehend spiritual reality. The two can be present simultaneously.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

OK, but very strange...all people have thoughts. It's impossible not to have them.
But how can one be certain that it exists/intervenes? How do you know that it has arisen as you said?

Have you not heard of meditation as it pertains to stilling the mind? Only when the mind is free from thought will reality be present without some mental conceptual interpretation in its place. Thinking is synonymous with duality, still mind meditation is synonymous with non-duality. God is non-dual.