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Member Survey: Overhauling the Rules' Text

How do you regard this member-informed attempt to overhaul the rules' text?

  • Positive.

    Votes: 15 65.2%
  • Neutral.

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • Negative.

    Votes: 3 13.0%

  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm all for more transparency. As I already said before, there's a reason we got rid of vehmic courts in jurisprudence. If RF can get rid of its clandestine moderation, it would improve the credibility of the process.

We would like the text of the rules to be as clear as possible, but we regard the confidentiality of moderation as essential for RF, for various reasons. One of them is that it prevents public shaming of moderated members. Another is that it ensures that no miscommunication or unnecessary discord can happen due to the publicization of any given instance of moderation.

There are other factors, but detailing them all would require a much longer post. We are aiming to take member feedback into account and keep members in the loop as much as possible when modifying the text of the rules and maintaining the forum in general, however.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Here are my thoughts, organized by the section of the rules that they refer to.

Thanks. I will respond to each point individually.

#4 Add some "looseness" on off topic posting. Threads do drift into other areas and there is no problem with that imo. Also an occasional touch of humor can be fun.

We consider posting that deviates from the OP on a case-by-case basis to account for occasional humorous tangents, relevant but not entirely topical points, etc. This is one example of a policy that might be helpful to clarify in the text of the rules, in this case Rule 4, so that the text of the rule reflects exactly how the staff applies it in different situations.

#5 This is a very personal view and I know won't get anywhere with it. I have never understood why some words are considered to be "bad" and not to be spoken. Words are just that, vibrations in the air. Anyway, it's possible to be incredibly insulting without ever using a "cuss" word.

This one is not up to the staff: RF needs to abide by Google's ad standards, and that entails keeping certain language out of the forum. Otherwise RF risks losing ad revenue, and this is not a call for the volunteer staff to make.

Our individual positions on language vary, but they have no bearing on Google's ad policies and RF's need to abide by them.

#8 The universally ignored rule. I see proselytizing everywhere here, blatant and out in the open, and I've never seen any of it banned. I wonder though how much it matters. Perhaps we should recognize that people that are very emotionally or intellectually attached to their particular beliefs will try to persuade others to their point of view. Christians, for example, are specifically commanded by their religion to do this. I think our members in general are well equipped to decide for themselves if they want to be persuaded, and I would miss the "lunatic fringe" of Flat Earthers and YECs if they were no longer allowed to push their beliefs.

Since moderation is confidential, any action or reports on posts a given member may find preachy will not be visible to them; only to the staff. We also can't read all posts on the forum, which is why the report function helps us out when it comes to reviewing potentially rule-violating posts.

Also, the wording of posts is a significant aspect of whether they abide by the rules: due to variations in wording, two posts could express identical opinions, but one of them could be in violation of the rules and other other not. Here is an example:

[Insert religion or worldview here] is the only truth/is evil.

The above would be a violation of Rule 8 for stating a personal belief as a fact, and it could also be a Rule 3 or Rule 9 violation due to the denigration of an entire religion or worldview as "evil."

On the other hand, this wouldn't be a rule violation:

In my opinion, [insert religion or worldview here] is the only truth/is evil.

This makes it clear that the stated position is the member's personal belief; the wording makes all the difference in this case.

I'd also remove the the rule that all statements should be phrased with "in my opinion" or similar. A while back there were a few members that tried to obey this by tacking such a phrase on everything they wrote and it just sounded odd. I think a general assumption that statements of fact are really opinions works for most of us.

If someone tacks such a phrase at the start or the end of every post but doesn't change the wording anywhere else, the post may still get moderated on Rule 8, since it could still be preachy for or against a given religion or worldview. We require the qualifiers of opinion so that debates and discussions don't devolve into absolute statements of beliefs as facts and turn into preachy exchanges rather than productive or informative ones.

#10 Just one point here. Posting in DIR forums can be automatically controlled. I think this may be already going on as the other day I found I was not allowed to post in a particular forum.

Yes, DIRs are software-locked, and each member can opt into up to three DIRs with which they identify.

I'll finish with a word of thanks to the Moderators, that do an often thankless but important job.

Thanks for your feedback and the kind words!
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
It has been a principle in most jurisdictions that the law and its application should be public.

What does this mean in practical terms and how would that translate into forum moderation?

What I mean is, All of our laws (rules) and the way that they're applied are made public here:

The only part of the process that isn't public is in the reports forum where staff decides whether or not some thing is a violation and what to do about it.

Granting public access to that would be the equivalent of making jury deliberations public, which would run counter to your claim above as these are usually held in private in most civilized countries in the modern world.

Or let's do this:
Here are the steps involved in moderating someone's post:

The post is reported. This part is private in that no one except the staff knows who made the report.

The staff and decides whether or not the reported post is a rule violation. This is done in private.

Action is then decided upon in accordance with the progression publicly outlined here: RF Rules , although staff may decide to depart from protocol in favor of leniency considering some circumstances, or in favor of taking harsher measures If the situation warrants it: for instance If someone is on a troll rampage in the forums we may skip protocol and restrict their account immediately for damage control. Those decisions are also made in private.

The warning or notification is then issued to the member privately.

If the member chooses to contest warnings or needs clarity about the action they can start a thread in Site Feedback where staff will explain how and why the decision to take the action was arrived at. This goes on in private between the staff and the member.

So the rules are made public (in fact one of the boxes people have to check when they register is and acknowledgment that they've read and understand the rules) and the usual protocol for applying the rules is made public.

All other aspects are kept private. This is as much or more for the sake of the member's privacy.

Now if you would, for the sake of clarity could you go back through all that and tell me which parts in red you think should be made blue.

Personally, it wouldn't bother me if we had the option to make a lot of this public in some cases. For instance: there were several times in my early days on staff where I suggested that anytime a member goes out in the open forums and discusses moderation actions taken against them, we could consider that a declaration that they've waived their right to privacy in this instance and make the deliberations in that particular case public.

What I mean is: hypothetically, If someone goes out into the open forums and says something like, "The staff deleted my post and threatened to ban me because they found out that I'm an Eskimo and the staff is Eskimophonic", we should be able to make the site feedback thread they're referring to public and show everyone that, "No, we deleted your post and threatened to ban you because you were suggesting that people should try and have sex with polar bears (under-aged polar bears at that)."

This idea was always shot down. Instead we have Rule 2. Rule 2 is basically to keep people from lying about us in the open forums. If there were some way to insure that people always told the truth about moderation actions taken against them we wouldn't need that rule.

As far as the rest of what you said: before we can get into a discussion about the benefits of transparency versus obscurity you're going to have to be a little more specific about which obscurities you would like to make transparent.
 
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Heyo

Veteran Member
What does this mean in practical terms and how would that translate into forum moderation?

What I mean is, All of our laws (rules) and the way that they're applied are made public here:

The only part of the process that isn't public is in the reports forum where staff decides whether or not some thing is a violation and what to do about it.

Granting public access to that would be the equivalent of making jury deliberations public, which would run counter to your claim above as these are usually held in private in most civilized countries in the modern world.

Or let's do this:
Here are the steps involved in moderating someone's post:

The post is reported. This part is private in that no one except the staff knows who made the report.

The staff and decides whether or not the reported post is a rule violation. This is done in private.

Action is then decided upon in accordance with the progression publicly outlined here: RF Rules , although staff may decide to depart from protocol in favor of leniency considering some circumstances, or in favor of taking harsher measures If the situation warrants it: for instance If someone is on a troll rampage in the forums we may skip protocol and restrict their account immediately for damage control. Those decisions are also made in private.

The warning or notification is then issued to the member privately.
Which is the "vehmic court" process I was talking about. The delinquent is, usually at night, dragged before an anonymous court where s/he is informed about the verdict - and ordered not to talk about it.
In a regular court, the trial is public, and the verdict is public.

If the member chooses to contest warnings or needs clarity about the action they can start a thread in Site Feedback where staff will explain how and why the decision to take the action was arrived at. This goes on in private between the staff and the member.
Which would again be a public trial in an appeals court.

So the rules are made public (in fact one of the boxes people have to check when they register is and acknowledgment that they've read and understand the rules) and the usual protocol for applying the rules is made public.

All other aspects are kept private. This is as much or more for the sake of the member's privacy.

Now if you would, for the sake of clarity could you go back through all that and tell me which parts in red you think should be made blue.

Personally, it wouldn't bother me if we had the option to make a lot of this public in some cases. For instance: there were several times in my early days on staff where I suggested that anytime a member goes out in the open forums and discusses moderation actions taken against them, we could consider that a declaration that they've waived their right to privacy in this instance and make the deliberations in that particular case public.

What I mean is: hypothetically, If someone goes out into the open forums and says something like, "The staff deleted my post and threatened to ban me because they found out that I'm an Eskimo and the staff is Eskimophonic", we should be able to make the site feedback thread they're referring to public and show everyone that, "No, we deleted your post and threatened to ban you because you were suggesting that people should try and have sex with polar bears (under-aged polar bears at that)."

This idea was always shot down. Instead we have Rule 2. Rule 2 is basically to keep people from lying about us in the open forums.
It also keeps people from telling the truth about you. E.g.: if (some of you) were Inuitphobic and conspired to bully Inuit through irrational moderation, they could do so for a long time before it came to the public's notice.
If there were some way to insure that people always told the truth about moderation actions taken against them we wouldn't need that rule.

As far as the rest of what you said: before we can get into a discussion about the benefits of transparency versus obscurity you're going to have to be a little more specific about which obscurities you would like to make transparent.
Let people know when moderation happened (putting a "deleted by moderator" on a post instead of quietly vanishing it) and have a member defend a post (and the staff the moderation) publicly (when requested).
But I've repeated that often enough to realize that that kind of transparency is not in the interest of RF. It would be nice, but I take any kind of extended transparency, e.g. frequent reports with anonymized, aggregated data like number of bans, number of deleted posts etc. That wouldn't touch any privacy.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
It would be nice, but I take any kind of extended transparency, e.g. frequent reports with anonymized, aggregated data like number of bans, number of deleted posts etc. That wouldn't touch any privacy.

I would like such a feature, but I don't see any currently available way for the staff to access such stats. Individually counting warnings and deleted posts would be unfeasible, so a software tool to do so would be helpful.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Which is the "vehmic court" process I was talking about. The delinquent is, usually at night, dragged before an anonymous court where s/he is informed about the verdict - and ordered not to talk about it.

Hyperbole aside, (and again): please outline for me exactly how you think moderation should work.

And I'm not asking you to make a list of the principles or ideals involved, I'm asking you for an actual schematic.

In a regular court, the trial is public,

Yes the trial is public, but the deliberations by the jury are private.

What goes on in the reports forum is akin to what goes out in a jury room, not a courtroom.

The closest thing to a courtroom would be site feedback.
and the verdict is public.
So if any random member receives a warning for rule one (or whatever), you think it should be displayed publicly somewhere in the forums that said number just received a warning for rule 1 (or whatever).

What purpose could that possibly serve?

And do you suppose most members would prefer it that way?

Which would again be a public trial in an appeals court.


It also keeps people from telling the truth about you.
Would you really expect people to come out into the open forums and say something like, "I blatantly violated a rule and by God I got a warning for it. And rightly so".

And even if they did, again, what purpose could that possibly serve?

E.g.: if (some of you) were Inuitphobic and conspired to bully Inuit through irrational moderation, they could do so for a long time before it came to the public's notice.

And of course that would require the rest of the staff going along with it.

Personally, Heyo, If I were a member of a forum and suspected that the staff was that untrustworthy I would have left a long time ago.

Let people know when moderation happened (putting a "deleted by moderator" on a post instead of quietly vanishing it)

I don't think anybody on staff would object to that. The problem is that would require tweaking the software which is something we can't do and the owners most likely won't.

If you'll notice, a lot of the time if a post is edited by a staff member you'll see *Staff Edit* in red letters where the problematic part of the post had been.

I think that demonstrates intent pretty clearly.
and have a member defend a post (and the staff the moderation) publicly (when requested).

So basically you're saying we should make site feedback public, or possibly have an additional site feedback option that works that way?

Personally, I wouldn't have any problem with that, it might inspire people to be a little more reasonable when contesting moderation, just out of self-consciousness.

But I've repeated that often enough to realize that that kind of transparency is not in the interest of RF.

I'm not sure I understand you here: read literally it sounds like you're recommending something that you yourself believe would go against the best interests of the site?

And what do you mean by RF exactly? Because you realize you are RF, right?

RF is the members, staff is chosen from among members, and everything that's done here is done for and buy members, except for the occasional technical tweek here and there.

It would be nice, but I take any kind of extended transparency, e.g. frequent reports with anonymized, aggregated data like number of bans, number of deleted posts etc. That wouldn't touch any privacy.

I'm not sure what you mean by, "I take"? And with that as a preface the rest of the sentence doesn't make any sense to me.

Could you rephrase that?
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This one is not up to the staff: RF needs to abide by Google's ad standards, and that entails keeping certain language out of the forum. Otherwise RF risks losing ad revenue, and this is not a call for the volunteer staff to make.

Our individual positions on language vary, but they have no bearing on Google's ad policies and RF's need to abide by them.
Its a shame that the website couldn't be split into a section which appears on google and a section which does not that allows swearing in my view.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Its a shame that the website couldn't be split into a section which appears on google and a section which does not that allows swearing in my view.
If that part of the forum became very popular than not being visible to Google would make activity metrics for the site go down and damage the websites discoverability. Make it harder to get seen by newcomers.

I think the best possible answer is that we take an advertisement agreement option that doesn't make the site rated for family. Then again there does exist some members who really appreciate the profanity free environment here. So there may not be a perfect solution. And in any case only the owners can make that particular decision, I'm afraid.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Hyperbole aside, (and again): please outline for me exactly how you think moderation should work.

And I'm not asking you to make a list of the principles or ideals involved, I'm asking you for an actual schematic.



Yes the trial is public, but the deliberations by the jury are private.

What goes on in the reports forum is akin to what goes out in a jury room, not a courtroom.

The closest thing to a courtroom would be site feedback.

So if any random member receives a warning for rule one (or whatever), you think it should be displayed publicly somewhere in the forums that said number just received a warning for rule 1 (or whatever).

What purpose could that possibly serve?

And do you suppose most members would prefer it that way?


Would you really expect people to come out into the open forums and say something like, "I blatantly violated a rule and by God I got a warning for it. And rightly so".

And even if they did, again, what purpose could that possibly serve?



And of course that would require the rest of the staff going along with it.

Personally, Heyo, If I were a member of a forum and suspected that the staff was that untrustworthy I would have left a long time ago.



I don't think anybody on staff would object to that. The problem is that would require tweaking the software which is something we can't do and the owners most likely won't.

If you'll notice, a lot of the time if a post is edited by a staff member you'll see *Staff Edit* in red letters where the problematic part of the post had been.

I think that demonstrates intent pretty clearly.


So basically you're saying we should make site feedback public, or possibly have an additional site feedback option that works that way?

Personally, I wouldn't have any problem with that, it might inspire people to be a little more reasonable when contesting moderation, just out of self-consciousness.



I'm not sure I understand you here: read literally it sounds like you're recommending something that you yourself believe would go against the best interests of the site?

And what do you mean by RF exactly? Because you realize you are RF, right?

RF is the members, staff is chosen from among members, and everything that's done here is done for and buy members, except for the occasional technical tweek here and there.



I'm not sure what you mean by, "I take"? And with that as a preface the rest of the sentence doesn't make any sense to me.

Could you rephrase that?
@Heyo never mind. I see what you're saying now.

(I had to make a new post for this because I guess the flavor of technical **** up this week is that the edit button no longer works. At least it isn't working for me)
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
The poll results as of this moment:

Positive: 13
Neutral: 3
Negative: 2

If anyone finds this proposal negative or neutral and has suggestions that they believe would improve it, please feel free to share said suggestions whether in this thread, in the Site Feedback forum, or via PM to me. I started this thread specifically to get member feedback, so I will read all suggestions that people post in any of those places.
 

Isabella Lecour

Active Member
I will be blunt. The rules quack. They have always quacked. They will always quack. Even when you change the rules, it will still quack. That is the baseline for anything that has rules. Rules are restrictions. Rules are not freedom. Rules are responsibilities.

I joined a year after the forums was founded. I've had my fair share of online moderation, as a moderator over a variety of interests, events, boards and chats. I've seen and been a part of many different styles of moderation. It's not the rules that fails to work. It's never the rules that fail to work. It's never the rules that takes out a whole community in a meltdown. If you want to make the rules more readable, just change the font.

If you approach the rules in an effort to update them to current understood sensibilities, you are making a mistake. You are erracing the foundations upon which you have drawn your understanding of the sensibilities. This is where the moderators must understand the spirit of the laws is different from the letter of the law. That's why there should be a onboarding process for new moderators. Everytime someone attempts to capture in words the spirit of the law and make that the letter of the law, things go quacky. Don't do it. The rules + the human = moderation.

What bothers me, and again, I will be blunt, is there is a desire to make public all mod actions? It would have been simpler to just say you want to destroy the whole thing. That is what will happen, if those desires succeed.

If there is someone a majority wants to kick out of the forums, it would be better to state such upfront. Even if it happens to be a mod, it would be better to say such upfront. None of this should be considered a violation of rule #1. And this is where I point out, it's never the rules that breaks a community. And yes, sometimes someone is bad for a community without them breaking any rules but the effect of that person is detrimental and ought to be removed. It's a very tough situation to deal with. Everyone here is here as a guest, even the staff, even if the owner is indisposed.

When it comes to adding to the rules, no. I don't support adding anything to it. In fact I don't support the rating system nor the frubals. Hanging on the frubals is undesirable. It was a cute memorable time but I also remember a ton of hurt feelings others had when the race for frubals started. People got hurt needlessly. Emotional, tiny hurts that are barely mentioned but those things add up. If I remember correctly, it was used as a bandaid to soothe concerns when the forums got sold. Sure, it was popular but that comes at a cost to the community.

The rules as they stand right now have stood the test of time. They are a solid framework to hold a community together over the most contentious of topics, ie religion and has does so extremely well.

I say, No Changes.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I will be blunt. The rules quack. They have always quacked. They will always quack. Even when you change the rules, it will still quack. That is the baseline for anything that has rules. Rules are restrictions. Rules are not freedom. Rules are responsibilities.

I'm not sure what the staff can do with this comment, though. A private forum like this obviously needs to have some rules, so if the premise is that "rules quack" in the first place, what can the staff act on to produce improvement per member feedback? A forum can't eliminate all rules and still be functional, at least not if it wants to maintain a baseline of civility and respect, so the only other option is to have reasonable rules.

I joined a year after the forums was founded. I've had my fair share of online moderation, as a moderator over a variety of interests, events, boards and chats. I've seen and been a part of many different styles of moderation. It's not the rules that fails to work. It's never the rules that fail to work. It's never the rules that takes out a whole community in a meltdown. If you want to make the rules more readable, just change the font.

If you approach the rules in an effort to update them to current understood sensibilities, you are making a mistake.

This is not what we are doing; the changes would be to increase clarity and transparency as well as reflect some changes in the software, such as the current rating system, that didn't exist back when the rules were first written.

You are erracing the foundations upon which you have drawn your understanding of the sensibilities. This is where the moderators must understand the spirit of the laws is different from the letter of the law. That's why there should be a onboarding process for new moderators.

The staff does have a training process for new moderators. I don't know where the assumption came from that we don't, given that regular members don't have access to the staff forums.

Everytime someone attempts to capture in words the spirit of the law and make that the letter of the law, things go quacky. Don't do it. The rules + the human = moderation.

What bothers me, and again, I will be blunt, is there is a desire to make public all mod actions? It would have been simpler to just say you want to destroy the whole thing. That is what will happen, if those desires succeed.

Have you read the previous posts in this thread? I'm asking because I made clear in those that we will retain the confidentiality of moderation due to a variety of factors.

If there is someone a majority wants to kick out of the forums, it would be better to state such upfront. Even if it happens to be a mod, it would be better to say such upfront.

I don't know of anyone whom the majority, be they staff or regular members, want to kick out of the forum, nor was such a goal even a remote part of our starting this thread.

None of this should be considered a violation of rule #1. And this is where I point out, it's never the rules that breaks a community. And yes, sometimes someone is bad for a community without them breaking any rules but the effect of that person is detrimental and ought to be removed. It's a very tough situation to deal with. Everyone here is here as a guest, even the staff, even if the owner is indisposed.

When it comes to adding to the rules, no. I don't support adding anything to it. In fact I don't support the rating system nor the frubals. Hanging on the frubals is undesirable. It was a cute memorable time but I also remember a ton of hurt feelings others had when the race for frubals started. People got hurt needlessly. Emotional, tiny hurts that are barely mentioned but those things add up. If I remember correctly, it was used as a bandaid to soothe concerns when the forums got sold. Sure, it was popular but that comes at a cost to the community.

The old frubal system is entirely and fundamentally different from the current rating system, so there's no connection between the two. The frubal race happened before I even joined the staff, so before mid-2012. That's more than 12 years ago by now. The issues said race caused have not reoccurred in at least that amount of time.

The rules as they stand right now have stood the test of time. They are a solid framework to hold a community together over the most contentious of topics, ie religion and has does so extremely well.

I say, No Changes.

The core framework will stay the same. The changes will not be to the foundation of any of the forum's 10 rules; only to certain details of some of them.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
I voted positive. Periodic review is always a good thing, I think, but I also believe that change should be very carefully and reluctantly done.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Rule 2 is basically to keep people from lying about us in the open forums. If there were some way to insure that people always told the truth about moderation actions taken against them we wouldn't need that rule.
That's not how I read Rule 2. I read it as "I don't know what the blazes I wrote caused me to be dinged. Well, sometimes I do, but sometimes I don't. I read the rule as not being allowed to ask "why" even in private.

I once was fired from a job and when I asked "what did I do so I can work on that", the answer was "I can't/won't tell you". That was decades ago and it still sticks in my memory.

From what you wrote, I would reword Rule 2 to indicate no public discussion but Ok to ask privately.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
That's not how I read Rule 2. I read it as "I don't know what the blazes I wrote caused me to be dinged. Well, sometimes I do, but sometimes I don't. I read the rule as not being allowed to ask "why" even in private.

Then you're reading it wrong.

Every single notice we send has instructions for starting a thread in site feedback.

Once you're there you can ask any questions you like.

This makes me curious: I wonder what other misconceptions people have about the rules.
I once was fired from a job and when I asked "what did I do so I can work on that", the answer was "I can't/won't tell you". That was decades ago and it still sticks in my memory.

Yes they're such a thing as a non-disclosure agreement in several types of businesses.

We don't have anything like that here.
From what you wrote, I would reword Rule 2 to indicate no public discussion but Ok to ask privately.

I guess we'll have to.

*Edit: actually, it's already stated in the first paragraph of the rule:
"
2. Discussion/Dispute of Moderation
To ensure that members respect and abide by moderation decisions, and to respect the privacy and reputation of our members, there must be no discussion of the moderation of content or members in public areas"
 
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Isabella Lecour

Active Member
I'm not sure what the staff can do with this comment, though. A private forum like this obviously needs to have some rules, so if the premise is that "rules quack" in the first place, what can the staff act on to produce improvement per member feedback? A forum can't eliminate all rules and still be functional, at least not if it wants to maintain a baseline of civility and respect, so the only other option is to have reasonable rules.
Read it, I guess. I'm answering the poll in a general manner, according to the rules that were set. This was set with general intentions to the nature of online moderation without any specific person, event or location in mind but properly avoiding nono words as I've yet to find a posted list. It's a baseline. The rules quack and it doesn't matter if it's this set of rules or a different set of rules. As a principal, rules quack.
This is not what we are doing; the changes would be to increase clarity and transparency as well as reflect some changes in the software, such as the current rating system, that didn't exist back when the rules were first written.
I beg to differ. What "current rating system" reference are you referring to in the rules on this page? If you are talking about the infraction system, I'm gonna have to ask when did staff stop using it and with what was it replaced by and who authorised and did they really have the authority to authorise it?
The staff does have a training process for new moderators. I don't know where the assumption came from that we don't, given that regular members don't have access to the staff forums.
I aimed with a wide margin. It's reassuring there is a training process. There is no assumption. I can only speak in generalities on things that touch on moderation.
Have you read the previous posts in this thread? I'm asking because I made clear in those that we will retain the confidentiality of moderation due to a variety of factors.
That felt rude. I get it but still and it still feels like you took this all Way too personal. But you don't understand why your word isn't suffect to quell concerns? You are one person. In a thread that's having a broad discussion about general topics of moderation. It fails to reassure me if you are head staff or not, you are one person. I don't know if there is a dictator behind the scenes or has someone talked y'all into a base democracy so you only have one vote or what the structure is. I know the past and I some of the recent past. But the current structure, I'm just a new as a fresh account.
I don't know of anyone whom the majority, be they staff or regular members, want to kick out of the forum, nor was such a goal even a remote part of our starting this thread.
I do. I have. And it's why the ignore function exists. And it's something that pops up in long running communities. People rub each other wrong from time to time. How everyone handles it, makes the bigger difference. But thinking it never happens, is not good.
The old frubal system is entirely and fundamentally different from the current rating system, so there's no connection between the two. The frubal race happened before I even joined the staff, so before mid-2012. That's more than 12 years ago by now. The issues said race caused have not reoccurred in at least that amount of time.
What rating system? If you talking about the reactions at the bottom of the post, everybody would be better off if they were yanked off the platform entirely. It's as troublesome as the frubals.
The core framework will stay the same. The changes will not be to the foundation of any of the forum's 10 rules; only to certain details of some of them.
These rules on this page doesn't need to change.

So staff at this other website is asking to change the rules without stating what the rules to be changed too? I don't like it one bit. I can't talk about it with other regulars in their forums. I have to discuss it on some other platform. They happen to have a neat little rule that gets brought out to shut down discussion when it gets too hot, about discussing things in public...even though staff joined in the thread, so many times it's come down to 'you got to know the rules' and the people and hopeful stay on everyone's good side cause their staff aint that big. It don't pay to **** off the powers that be, ya know. There is always two sets of rules but only one set counts. And when happens that some clamor for changing the rules, its because they haven't been following the rules for a long time.

But in all seriousness, change the font. It's unreadable as it is.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Then you're reading it wrong.
That's why I asked for clarification in the rules themselves because I read the first part thought, crap and stopped readying.

And I thought that was the whole purpose of asking for feedback - to find issues.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
That's why I asked for clarification in the rules themselves because I read the first part thought, crap and stopped readying.

And I thought that was the whole purpose of asking for feedback - to find issues.

It is. I'm just giving you feedback on your feedback.
 
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