For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[shunyadragon]

Can’t have it both ways. If Jesus Christ is not God then He is a fraud and liar.

Fa;se. the Roman and Hellenist Chrish Fathers compiled the NT based on what they believed at the tim. It is unfortunately in contradiction to what the Torah described what the nature and relationship of the Messiah must be.

Torah after ~600 BCE there is One and only One God.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No, Jesus is not a fraud or a liar since Jesus never claimed to be God.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

That is not Jesus saying that He is God.

In that verse, Jesus is differentiating Himself from God.
Jesus said that only God is good because He was humbling Himself towards God.
This was Jesus saying that 'compared to God' no one is good.

Jesus is the Son of God who made God known. Jesus is not God incarnate, not the Almighty God.

Since Jesus said that no man has seen God at any time, we know that Jesus is not God, since many people saw Jesus.

John 1:18
John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.

KJV No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

NASB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.

NKJV No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.

RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

WE No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.

The bottom line is no one is good but God and you’re saying Jesus is good and not God? How does that work?
Jesus did say He was God :
”I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”“
‭‭John‬ ‭10‬:‭30‬-‭33‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Also only God deserves worship and Jesus Christ is worshipped now and while He was on the earth as God incarnate.

 

[shunyadragon]

The bottom line is no one is good but God and you’re saying Jesus is good and not God? How does that work?
Jesus did say He was God :
Was

Twisted words to justify an agenda. Are Abraham and Moses not good?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Twisted words to justify an agenda. Are Abraham and Moses not good?

Love The Revelation of Jesus Christ:
”Then I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it, and I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭14‬ ‭ESV‬‬

So to answer your question…no man is good, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God except 1.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you are saying that creation has always existed and was not created by anyone, but the world and humans have not always existed even though they are part of creation.

Yes, that is what I am saying and that is congruent with theories in science.

Science does not have a conclusive answer yet, but at least two potentially testable theories plausibly hold that the universe--and therefore time--existed well before the big bang. If either scenario is right, the cosmos has always been in existence and, even if it recollapses one day, will never end. Feb 1, 2006

The Myth Of The Beginning Of Time | Scientific American​

Has Earth always existed?

But Earth did not always exist within this expansive universe, and it was not always a hospitable haven for life. Billions of years ago, Earth, along with the rest of our solar system, was entirely unrecognizable, existing only as an enormous cloud of dust and gas. Oct 19, 2023

Formation of Earth - National Geographic Society​

Do you mean that the material of the physical creation has always existed in some form and the material of the spiritual creation has always existed in some form but that individual articles of creation have not always existed, such as you and I?

Yes, that is what I believe.

And of course the Manifestations have existed in heaven before coming to earth, but have not existed forever.
How do you think it is possible that all things were created through Jesus the Son if He has not been in existence forever?
Do you think that He was created through Himself?

I do not know if the Manifestations of God have existed forever in heaven before coming to earth since I don't know when heaven came into existence. I don't think anyone knows that.

I think that verses that says that everything was created through Jesus is subject to a different interpretation than how Christians who believe that Jesus is God interpret it, since I do not believe that Jesus is God and I believe that God created everything.

Look at the verses in context. Jesus is the image of the invisible God and by him (the invisible God) all things were created.

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

[Trailblazer]

The bottom line is no one is good but God and you’re saying Jesus is good and not God? How does that work?

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus is saying that He is not good: Why callest thou me good? Jesus is saying that only God is good.
Jesus meant that 'compared to God' He is not good because God is greater than Jesus.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jesus did say He was God :
”I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”“
‭‭John‬ ‭10‬:‭30‬-‭33‬ ‭ESV‬‬

The Jews mistakenly thought that Jesus was claiming to be God when Jesus said ”I and the Father are one.”

However, ”I and the Father are one.” does not mean that Jesus is God.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

Jesus was a Servant of God and that is why Jesus said to the Jews:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus clearly differentiated Himself from the Father in the verses above and that alone means that Jesus could not be God.

Also only God deserves worship and Jesus Christ is worshipped now and while He was on the earth as God incarnate.

You are correct in saying that only God deserved worship, so if people worship Jesus they are in error.
Jesus did not want to be worshiped. Jesus said that we are only supposed to worship God.

Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Then why did Jesus have no problem receiving worship?
You believe falsely that anyone can say if you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father, only God the Son can say that.

”And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inthe name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28‬:‭17‬-‭20‬ ‭ESV‬‬

 

[Brian2]

The story of Adam and and Eve is not history. It is a story told by Jews to make some kind of point. Also a lot of the stories about Abraham are just stories and not history. Abdu'l-Baha said in effect that Moses took the fall on behalf of the Hebrews who were the ones that rebelled, and even if Abdu'l-Baha is not to be believed, how can it be verified in the minute detail that Moses sinned by striking the rock instead of speaking to it, which to me seems to be not a sin really. That is really straining credibility to call that little detail a sin. God is quoted as saying He sinned by doing that, but can that be believed? It doesn't strike me as being a sin. What you are saying doesn't prove that the Baha'i position is wrong. How can you be so confident about that? You wouldn't be so confident if you just used your noggin. I'm not saying that the Baha'i position is proven. You have your opinion and I have mine.

So you are showing the fruit of your false Prophet and are, along with any other Baha'i, denying that the Bible is true and the Word of God. That is your opinion it seems.

 

[Dimi95]

Can’t have it both ways. If Jesus Christ is not God then He is a fraud and liar.
But He is neither of those but The Son of God, God Incarnate, The Perfect One, The First and the Last, The Almighty.

Son of God , God Incarnate , The First and the Last , The Begining and The End , Rabbi , The Shepard , The way , The truth , The life , Son of Man

Jesus claimed to be each of this titles.
He said I am the truth , not i am here with the truth.
He said "I am the life" , not i am here with the life.
He said "I am the way" , not i am with the way.


Daniel 7:13-14
"I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed."

Daniel 10:5-6
"I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist.His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude."

Revelation 1
"I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, which said: 'Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.'
I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: 'Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
'Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.'The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

*So here he claims First and the Last and The Living One.

Daniel 7:8-9
"While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully."
As I looked,
'thrones were set in place,and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.' "


Luke 1:67-69
'His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:
'Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel,
because he has come to his people and redeemed them.'
He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David'

Again , Scripture confirms!


Mark 2:24-28
"The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?
He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”
Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.".

*Notice how he justifies what Daniel did , and how he claims to be Lord of the Sabbath.

Mark 14
"They took Jesus to the high priest, and all the chief priests, the elders and the teachers of the law came together.Peter followed him at a distance, right into the courtyard of the high priest. There he sat with the guards and warmed himself at the fire.
The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death, but they did not find any.Many testified falsely against him, but their statements did not agree.
Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: 'We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.’
Yet even then their testimony did not agree.
Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, 'Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?' But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
Again the high priest asked him, 'Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?'
'I am,' said Jesus. 'And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.'
The high priest tore his clothes. 'Why do we need any more witnesses?' he asked. 'You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?'
They all condemned him as worthy of death.Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, 'Prophesy!' And the guards took him and beat him."

Jesus Claims to be 'The Son of Man' from Daniel.Jesus claims 'I am' when he was asked by the Priest.
Not me , neither anyone else , but Jesus.

So It is irrelevant what anybody explains, when Jesus claims to be the Messiah in Scriptures.Point!

James 1:22
"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."

Isaiah 9:6 confirmed!

 

[Trailblazer]

Then why did Jesus have no problem receiving worship?

Jesus did have a problem receiving worship. That is why Jesus said: "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." (Matthew 4:10)

You believe falsely that anyone can say if you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father, only God the Son can say that.

God the Son? Jesus cannot be the Son of God and also God. A Son is not His Father.

Jesus is not the only one who can say "if you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father."
Anyone who has see any Manifestation of God has sen the Father, and since Jesus is not the only Manifestation of God, people who have seen other Manifestations of God have also seen the Father.

”And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inthe name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28‬:‭17‬-‭20‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Just because people saw Jesus and worshiped Jesus that does not mean that Jesus did not have a problem with that.

All authority was given to Jesus to speak for God until the end if the age, but the age of which Jesus spoke ended, so Jesus is not the one speaking for God anymore.

 

[shunyadragon]

So you are saying that creation has always existed and was not created by anyone, but the world and humans have not always existed even though they are part of creation.

Anyone?!?!?! This as you worded is the Metaphysical Naturalist that does not believe in God.

The Baha'i belief is that our physical existence is an eternal Creation that reflects the attributes of God. Like the shadow of the sun; where the shadow exists as long as the sun exists.

Do You Believe in Creation or Eternity?

The existence of the universe, the Baha'i teachings say, is perpetual and unchanging. However, Baha’u’llah wrote, all creation is preceded by a cause...

bahaiteachings.org

…Know that a lord without vassals cannot be imagined; a sovereign without subjects cannot exist; a teacher without pupils cannot be designated; a creator without a creation is impossible; a provider without those provided for is inconceivable—since all of the divine names and attributes call for the existence of created things. If we were to imagine a time when created things did not exist, it would be tantamount to denying the divinity of God.
Apart from this, absolute non-existence lacks the capacity to attain existence. If the universe were pure nothingness, existence could not have been realized. Thus, as that Essence of Oneness, or divine Being, is eternal and everlasting—that is, as it has neither beginning nor end—it follows that the world of existence, this endless universe, likewise has no beginning. To be sure, it is possible for some part of creation—one of the celestial globes—to be newly formed or to disintegrate, but the other countless globes would continue to exist and the world of existence itself would not be disrupted or destroyed. On the contrary, its existence is perpetual and unchanging. Now, as each globe has a beginning, it must inevitably have an end as well, since every composition, whether universal or particular, must of necessity be decomposed. At most, some disintegrate quickly and others slowly, but it is impossible for something that is composed not to ultimately decompose. – Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, newly revised edition, pp. 207-208.

The existence of the universe, the Baha’i teachings clearly say, “is perpetual and unchanging.” However, Baha’u’llah wrote, all creation “is preceded by a cause:”

The one true God hath everlastingly existed, and will everlastingly continue to exist. His creation, likewise, hath had no beginning, and will have no end. All that is created, however, is preceded by a cause. This fact, in itself, establisheth, beyond the shadow of a doubt, the unity of the Creator. – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 161.

Despite the misuse of the Big Bang Theory (hate this name) it does not conclude the universe has a beginning. In fact the current evidece demonstrates The boundless Quantum existence underlies out universe and all possible universes

 

[Brian2]

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus did not make a mistake. As with many other verses, Jesus did not talk plainly since He expected us to figure out what He meant.

Jesus is as good as God since Jesus shares most of God's attributes, but Jesus said that God is greater than Him because there are other attributes of God that make God greater.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Phil 2:6-11 tells us that Jesus was in the form of God and equal to God but became a servant.
God is greater than His Son in authority and greater than His servant in authority. However Jesus the Son of God is exactly like His Father, iow lacks nothing of what the Father is.

You do not know what is a sin in the Eyes of God. You only know what you read in the Bible.
In The Kitáb-i-Íqán Baha'u'llah explained why what Moses did was not a sin.

I know that what Moses did was sin in the eyes of God because that is what God in the Bible tells me. (Deut 32:51)
Adam plainly disobeyed God and sinned.

 

[Dimi95]

Isaiah 9:6-7 is not about Jesus. Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God”

This is False as in Mark 14 when Jesus is asked by the Priest : 'Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?'
he answered 'I Am'

So he Claims Also the Messianic title.

So can the only Son of God also be the Son of Man?

 

[Brian2]

I do not know if the Manifestations of God have existed forever in heaven before coming to earth since I don't know when heaven came into existence. I don't think anyone knows that.

I think that verses that says that everything was created through Jesus is subject to a different interpretation than how Christians who believe that Jesus is God interpret it, since I do not believe that Jesus is God and I believe that God created everything.

Look at the verses in context. Jesus is the image of the invisible God and by him (the invisible God) all things were created.

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

@Truthseeker #512 says that the Manifestations have existed forever, but of course that is a denial of the Bible which tells us that all things have been created (whether by the invisible God or by Jesus is unimportant for this question).

However Col 1:15-16 is saying that all things were created through Jesus and it is that little word "for" which tells us that. (and there are other reasons also)
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of creation FOR by him all things were created.

 

[shunyadragon]

Are you saying that Jesus was not as good as God? Is that because you think Jesus sinned or what?

1 Corinthians 4:4-6

King James Version​

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Jesus did have a problem receiving worship. That is why Jesus said: "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." (Matthew 4:10)

God the Son? Jesus cannot be the Son of God and also God. A Son is not His Father.

Jesus is not the only one who can say "if you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father."
Anyone who has see any Manifestation of God has sen the Father, and since Jesus is not the only Manifestation of God, people who have seen other Manifestations of God have also seen the Father.

Just because people saw Jesus and worshiped Jesus that does not mean that Jesus did not have a problem with that.

All authority was given to Jesus to speak for God until the end if the age, but the age of which Jesus spoke ended, so Jesus is not the one speaking for God anymore.

The Holy Spirit is speaking now through the Church (the Bride of Christ) the pillar and support of the Truth.
”“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.“
‭‭John‬ ‭14‬:‭15‬-‭17‬, ‭26‬ ‭ESV‬‬

 

[Dimi95]

1 Corinthians 4:4-6

King James Version​

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

This is Paul , not Jesus.

Read the whole chapter

 

[Brian2]

The problem with subjective interpretive religious beliefs in prophecies attempts at reason and logic are for the most part circular to justify ones own beliefs.

The Jews do not believe Jesus, Muhammad. Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled any of the prophesies in the Torah, and it is there book in their language. If the fulfillment pf the prophesies was so objective and obvious there would more wider consensus as to who fulfilled the prophecies.

When it comes to Baha'i belief about who the prophecies apply to, that is not interpretation, that is just believing the claims of Baha'u'llah and subsequently denying what the New Testament tells us about whom the prophecies apply to.
If we did it by interpretation only the prophecies apply to Jesus and not Baha'u'llah.
eg The child of Isa 9 is the same as the child of Isa 7:14, who is Jesus, and so the child in Isa 9 is Jesus.
The Isa 9 prophecy is not just Isa 9:5-6 but starts a lot earlier than that and includes a reference to where Jesus came from, Galilee, (Isa 9:1).

Yes, some of the prophesies of the Torah are specific and widely interpreted by many Christians in the world at the time as the time of the return of the Messiah. For example the prophesies concerning the date 1844. This was previously cited and you ignored it.

I'm not sure where I am meant to have ignored that but the Baha'i interpretation of those time prophecies in Daniel is not really something that Baha'is should go to and drag up because they don't do a good job of it, and end up showing how wrong they are.

 

[Brian2]

Anyone?!?!?! This as you worded is the Metaphysical Naturalist that does not believe in God.

The Baha'i belief is that our physical existence is an eternal Creation that reflects the attributes of God. Like the shadow of the sun; where the shadow exists as long as the sun exists.

Do You Believe in Creation or Eternity?

The existence of the universe, the Baha'i teachings say, is perpetual and unchanging. However, Baha’u’llah wrote, all creation is preceded by a cause...

bahaiteachings.org

The existence of the universe, the Baha’i teachings clearly say, “is perpetual and unchanging.” However, Baha’u’llah wrote, all creation “is preceded by a cause:”



Despite the misuse of the Big Bang Theory (hate this name) it does not conclude the universe has a beginning. In fact the current evidece demonstrates The boundless Quantum existence underlies out universe and all possible universes

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
There was no, "before the beginning," because time began at the beginning.
The first cause lived in timelessness and the cause and effect happened together at the beginning imo. (the cause did not have to precede the effect)
If God existed in timelessness we cannot say that there was absolute nothing.

 

[Dimi95]

If someone understands language at certain level he will understand this

So , every ancient alphabet , bar none , has always from day one,with each letter had a mystyreous number assosiated with a letter

The study of that code is called gematria - atomic mass of the elements.

The numbers of the atomic mass are the numbers that equate to the mysterious letters in the ancient alphabets.

What that means is when you look at human DNA or the DNA in every life the numbers that equate to those become 1 , 5 , 6 , 3

Element
Hydrogen: 1 - mass , 1 - gematria
Nitrogen: 5 - mass , 5 - gematria
Oxygen: 6 - mass 6 - gematria
Carbon: 3 - mass , 3 - gematria

Literally reads , literal

God - eternal - within - the body

It is in Hebrew , in Arabic and in Sanskrit(an ancient Indo-European language of India) - three of the root languages

Why left a signature within something that can crumble within few thousands of years or in pages of a book that can be destroyed?
Why not put it in the creation itself?