For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[stvdv]

I used to be a trinity believer myself

Hinduism also has the Trinity concept
So, Trinity concept exists
As such it's true

Trimurti
The Trimūrti is the trinity of supreme divinity in Hinduism, in which the cosmic functions of creation, preservation, and destruction

 

[Brian2]

. . . because it is false

I said: Jesus said that only God is good and Baha'is say that the Manifestations are good but not God.

What I meant was, "Jesus said that only God is good and Baha'is say that the Manifestations are good but are not God."

 

[Brian2]

It was not a lie because Jesus meant that there is no one as good as God. It was not a false humility. It was a true humility.

Many people are good, and the Manifestations of God were good, but nobody is as good as God. That is what Jesus meant in Mark 10:18

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

So Jesus made a mistake and should have said that nobody is as good as God.
However since Jesus is exactly like His Father, then He is as good as God.

No Manifestations of God ever sinned. What you might consider a sin was not a sin in God's eyes.

Adam sinned in the eyes of God when he ate the fruit. He did what God had told him not to do.
Moses sinned in the eyes of God when he struck the Rock of Meribah instead of just speaking to it as God had told him to do. He was punished for this sin by not being allowed to enter the promised land.
Abraham sinned when he listened to Sarah and had sex with Sarah's maidservant Hagar instead of believing God when told that Sarah would become pregnant, and was punished for it.
Deny these things and you are again denying the Bible and showing the fruit of following the false prophet.

 

[Brian2]

No Jesus dodi not lie. You just interpret sciectripture in Hellenist Roman perspective making Jesus a Roman Demigod.

Are you saying that Jesus was not as good as God? Is that because you think Jesus sinned or what?

 

[Brian2]

That is correct, creation has always existed, which implies that it was not created by anyone, but that does not mean that the world and humans have always existed since creation is everything in existence, not only what is on earth.

So you are saying that creation has always existed and was not created by anyone, but the world and humans have not always existed even though they are part of creation.
Do you mean that the material of the physical creation has always existed in some form and the material of the spiritual creation has always existed in some form but that individual articles of creation have not always existed, such as you and I?
And of course the Manifestations have existed in heaven before coming to earth, but have not existed forever.
How do you think it is possible that all things were created through Jesus the Son if He has not been in existence forever?
Do you think that He was created through Himself?

 

[Brian2]

Humans were not created the way it says in Genesis. Humans evolved over the course of time.
But you could say that God created humans since God set the process of evolution into motion.

It was by the will of God that humans and everything else in the heavens and on earth came into existence, as it is described in Genesis, so in that sense Genesis is correct. It just did not all happen in six days.

It happened in 6 periods of time that were not 24 hour days imo also. So God created all the different sorts of plants and animals etc and they have reproduced and continued to evolve,,,,,,,,,,,,, diversifying to fit into environmental niches and degenerating also through harmful mutations.

 

[Dimi95]

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

The Messiah who is to rule the earth and usher in a reign of blessing and peace that will have no end who holds the title of 'Everlasting Father' is not Jesus.

Isaiah 9:6-7 is not about Jesus. Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God”

Scripture does not support your claim

John 1:18 states:
"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

Revelation 22:6-9 states:
"The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”

I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.But he said to me, 'Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!' "

Then it continues in the same chapter

Revelation 22:12-16
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

'Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

So when you quote , 'The Father is greater then I' i quote 'The Father and I are one'

The same with the other claims , it has an answer.

 

[Brian2]

Scripture does not support your claim

John 1:18 states:
"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

Revelation 22:6-9 states:
"The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”

I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.But he said to me, 'Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!' "

Then it continues in the same chapter

Revelation 22:12-16
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

'Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

So when you quote , 'The Father is greater then I' i quote 'The Father and I are one'

The same with the other claims , it has an answer.

There are many prophecies about the Messiah that Baha'u'llah and Baha'i claim belong to Baha'u'llah, even if those prophecies are applied to Jesus in the New Testament.
Reason and logic does not work because they do not believe the Bible but believe Baha'u'llah and Baha'i teachings and deny the Bible wherever it contradicts those teachings. But interestingly they say that they don't deny the Bible, that they just interpret it differently.

 

[shunyadragon]

There are many prophecies about the Messiah that Baha'u'llah and Baha'i claim belong to Baha'u'llah, even if those prophecies are applied to Jesus in the New Testament.
Reason and logic does not work because they do not believe the Bible but believe Baha'u'llah and Baha'i teachings and deny the Bible wherever it contradicts those teachings. But interestingly they say that they don't deny the Bible, that they just interpret it differently.

The problem with subjective interpretive religious beliefs in prophecies attempts at reason and logic are for the most part circular to justify ones own beliefs.

The Jews do not believe Jesus, Muhammad. Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled any of the prophesies in the Torah, and it is there book in their language. If the fulfillment pf the prophesies was so objective and obvious there would more wider consensus as to who fulfilled the prophecies.

Yes, some of the prophesies of the Torah are specific and widely interpreted by many Christians in the world at the time as the time of the return of the Messiah. For example the prophesies concerning the date 1844. This was previously cited and you ignored it.

 

[shunyadragon]

Hinduism also has the Trinity concept
So, Trinity concept exists
As such it's true

Trimurti
The Trimūrti is the trinity of supreme divinity in Hinduism, in which the cosmic functions of creation, preservation, and destruction

The concept of the Trinity in the form of a polytheism is wide spread in ancient human religions.

 

[Truthseeker]

So Jesus made a mistake and should have said that nobody is as good as God.
However since Jesus is exactly like His Father, then He is as good as God.



Adam sinned in the eyes of God when he ate the fruit. He did what God had told him not to do.
Moses sinned in the eyes of God when he struck the Rock of Meribah instead of just speaking to it as God had told him to do. He was punished for this sin by not being allowed to enter the promised land.
Abraham sinned when he listened to Sarah and had sex with Sarah's maidservant Hagar instead of believing God when told that Sarah would become pregnant, and was punished for it.
Deny these things and you are again denying the Bible and showing the fruit of following the false prophet.

The story of Adam and and Eve is not history. It is a story told by Jews to make some kind of point. Also a lot of the stories about Abraham are just stories and not history. Abdu'l-Baha said in effect that Moses took the fall on behalf of the Hebrews who were the ones that rebelled, and even if Abdu'l-Baha is not to be believed, how can it be verified in the minute detail that Moses sinned by striking the rock instead of speaking to it, which to me seems to be not a sin really. That is really straining credibility to call that little detail a sin. God is quoted as saying He sinned by doing that, but can that be believed? It doesn't strike me as being a sin. What you are saying doesn't prove that the Baha'i position is wrong. How can you be so confident about that? You wouldn't be so confident if you just used your noggin. I'm not saying that the Baha'i position is proven. You have your opinion and I have mine.

 

[Truthseeker]

How do you think it is possible that all things were created through Jesus the Son if He has not been in existence forever?

All of the Manifestations have been in existence forever. How creation is brought about is complex. The Baha'i position as I understand it is that God created the Primal Will, and the Primal Will in turn is what created creation. The Primal Will of God is manifested through all the Manifestations. So, what John was talking about in the beginning of his gospel account I understand as the Primal Will creating creation, which in a sense points to Jesus also because the Primal Will also is manifested through Jesus. My understanding on that matter is subject to possible revision, because it is a subtle and complex position.

In one sense creation was created, in another it has always existed. Creation wouldn't exist without God existing.

 

[Truthseeker]

John 1:18 states:
"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

There are different translations of that. For instance the new King James version says:

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten [a]Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Anyway the words "no one has ever God" seems to indicate a contradiction to a translation saying that Jesus is God. Either that or John is contradicting himself. I am aware that most Christians endeavor to get around that with their concept of the trinity, but that interpretation seems a little on the desperate side to me trying to justify saying Jesus is God.

I'm sure with your other material in your post you feel that proves your point, but it doesn't to me. I realize that whatever interpretation I have will prove nothing to you. The scripture of the New Testament is a battleground for people who try to prove their view of it, and it gets none of us anywhere. The important thing is not doctrinal points about whether Jesus is God, but Jesus' teachings like what He taught in what is called the sermon on the mount in Matthew chapters 5-7 and other teachings he taught elsewhere.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Of course Jesus is good.

There you go then, you recognize Jesus is God and that was His point with the question.
He always was bringing people to a point of faith by asking questions, like to Peter Who do people say that I am? Who do you say that I am?

 

[Trailblazer]

Hinduism also has the Trinity concept
So, Trinity concept exists
As such it's true

The Baha'i Faith also has a Trinity concept, but it is different from the Christian concept.
The detailed explanation is in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY

Below is my brief overview of the Baha'i belief.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in the sense that they are ‘one in Purpose.’ They work together, but they are separate, not ‘part of God.’

In brief, here is how the Baha’i version of the Trinity operates.

God is exalted above anything that can ever be perceived so God remains in His own high place, on His Throne. God never descends to earth. God cannot be divided into parts.

God sent Jesus from heaven and Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit from the womb of Mary into a human body. Later, after Jesus reached a certain age, God sent the Holy Spirit to Him and it descended upon Him like a dove when Jesus was baptized. After Jesus received the Holy Spirit from God the Father, Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to believers and it dwelt in believers.

The Holy Spirit does not enter the body, but rather it has a direct connection to the body through the soul, which is associated with the mind. That is what the indwelling Holy Spirit means to a Baha'i.

 

[Trailblazer]

There you go then, you recognize Jesus is God and that was His point with the question.
He always was bringing people to a point of faith by asking questions, like to Peter Who do people say that I am? Who do you say that I am?

Jesus is good but Jesus is not God.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

That is not Jesus saying that He is God.
In that verse, Jesus is differentiating Himself from God. He is saying that 'compared to God' He (Jesus) is not good.

Jesus said that only God is good because He was humbling Himself towards God.
This was Jesus saying that 'compared to God' no one is good.

 

[Trailblazer]

Scripture does not support your claim

I am the one who said what is in that post to which you are replying.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

The Messiah who is to rule the earth and usher in a reign of blessing and peace that will have no end who holds the title of 'Everlasting Father' is not Jesus.

Isaiah 9:6-7 is not about Jesus. Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God”

John 1:18 states:
"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

You seem to want to avoid the correct translations of the Bible in favor of translations that have been altered to make Jesus into God.

If no one has ever seen God, then Jesus cannot be God, since we know from the Bible that many people saw Jesus.

The following translations of John 1:18 are correct. These translations are also consistent with my Baha'i beliefs about Jesus and God.
Jesus is the Son of God, not God. A Son is not the Father, they are separate entities.

John 1:18
John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.

KJV No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

NASB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.

NKJV No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.

RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

WE No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.

Revelation 22:6-9 states:
"The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”

I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.But he said to me, 'Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!' "

Then it continues in the same chapter

Revelation 22:12-16
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

'Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

None of those verses indicate that Jesus is God.

So when you quote , 'The Father is greater then I' i quote 'The Father and I are one'

The same with the other claims , it has an answer.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

Jesus was a Servant of God and that is why Jesus said to the Jews:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus clearly differentiated Himself from the Father in the verses above and that alone means that Jesus could not be God.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Jesus is good but Jesus is not God.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Can’t have it both ways. If Jesus Christ is not God then He is a fraud and liar.
But He is neither of those but The Son of God, God Incarnate, The Perfect One, The First and the Last, The Almighty.

 

[Trailblazer]

So Jesus made a mistake and should have said that nobody is as good as God.
However since Jesus is exactly like His Father, then He is as good as God.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus did not make a mistake. As with many other verses, Jesus did not talk plainly since He expected us to figure out what He meant.

Jesus is as good as God since Jesus shares most of God's attributes, but Jesus said that God is greater than Him because there are other attributes of God that make God greater.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Adam sinned in the eyes of God when he ate the fruit. He did what God had told him not to do.
Moses sinned in the eyes of God when he struck the Rock of Meribah instead of just speaking to it as God had told him to do. He was punished for this sin by not being allowed to enter the promised land.
Abraham sinned when he listened to Sarah and had sex with Sarah's maidservant Hagar instead of believing God when told that Sarah would become pregnant, and was punished for it.
Deny these things and you are again denying the Bible and showing the fruit of following the false prophet.

You do not know what is a sin in the Eyes of God. You only know what you read in the Bible.
In The Kitáb-i-Íqán Baha'u'llah explained why what Moses did was not a sin.

 

[Trailblazer]

Can’t have it both ways. If Jesus Christ is not God then He is a fraud and liar.

No, Jesus is not a fraud or a liar since Jesus never claimed to be God.

But He is neither of those but The Son of God, God Incarnate, The Perfect One, The First and the Last, The Almighty.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

That is not Jesus saying that He is God.

In that verse, Jesus is differentiating Himself from God.
Jesus said that only God is good because He was humbling Himself towards God.
This was Jesus saying that 'compared to God' no one is good.

Jesus is the Son of God who made God known. Jesus is not God incarnate, not the Almighty God.

Since Jesus said that no man has seen God at any time, we know that Jesus is not God, since many people saw Jesus.

John 1:18
John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.

KJV No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

NASB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.

NKJV No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.

RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

WE No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.