Jesus - First Born?

[Eli G]

Some of the texts about the pre-existence of Jesus:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence (...) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”) (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

... 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. (...) 31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others. (...)

... 6:33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (...) 38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?

... 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.” (...) 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.

... 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, (...) 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

Did Jesus lie about pre-existing in heaven next to his Father before he was born as a human?

 

[Soapy]

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.
John 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

Sorry, what are you saying?

‘The Son of Man’ ascending to where he was before???

The Son of Man, a human Being … descended down from, and ascended up into, Heaven??

Brian2, Brian2, Brian2, really…?
You really think there was a flesh and blood physical bodied human Being in the Spirit realm of Heaven???

Man was made ‘a little lower than the Angels’… and even Angels do not have physical bodies in the Heavenly realm?

Jesus was only able to enter the Heavenly realm AFTER he was raised up from the dead and given AN IMMORTAL BODY…

An Immortal body is nog like the natural human body, it is a SPIRIT BODY that can be dematerialised and materialised JUST LIKE THE ANGELS who created bodies for themselves in the days of before the great flood.

It’s interesting that when God killed then out of the world they did not DIE in their spirit but simply were dematerialised and their Spirit were ‘chained in spiritual dungeons’ AWAITING JUDGEMENT ON the last day!!! Thus, it show that killing the body of a Spirit Being does not kill the Spirit nor prevent it being active in the spirit realm which is why those DEMON angels were placed in ‘Spirit PRISON’!!! When Jesus died, his Spirit was A HUMAN SPIRIT and was dormant, inert, inactive, SLEEPING with GOD who created it - hence Jesus’ last words to his Father:

• ‘It is done…. Father, INTO THY HANDS I commit MY SPIRIT!’

… and he breathed his last (until he was resurrected!!)

And, as with Jesus Christ so will those who are deemed worthy out of all humanity at the judgement seat at the end of time. Those deemed WICKED by the judgement of Jesus Christ, including Satan, the demon Angels, and DEATH itself, will be DESTROYED… which means a PERMANENT DEATH… of which there will be not ever be any remembrance of them!!!!

 

[Brian2]

Didn't say it had nothing to do with the origins of Jesus - It does say that he would originate from the tribe of Judah to be ruler of Israel.

What it does say is that from Bethlem will come one whose origins are of old, from the days of eternity, from ancient days, from everlasting etc depending on your translation.

Yes, that is how OT Israelite believers understood it - the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc. - ONE God who is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ of whom Jesus said was the ONE true God.
You can't be God when you have a God - when one has a God and is also God - that's two Gods.
The Son was not eternal - he was raised eternal, i.e. given eternal life.
Jesus wasn't "AS A MAN" - he was a man, a human being. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc. would have never thought that Jesus would have been anything other than A MAN.

When the Son of God became a man, that is when YHWH became His God. (Psalm 22:10)
And yes He was and is a man but also was and is the Son of God whose origins are in eternity.
You cannot say what Abraham, Isaac or Jacob thought of Him.

 

[Brian2]

Sorry, what are you saying?

‘The Son of Man’ ascending to where he was before???

The Son of Man, a human Being … descended down from, and ascended up into, Heaven??

Brian2, Brian2, Brian2, really…?
You really think there was a flesh and blood physical bodied human Being in the Spirit realm of Heaven???

Man was made ‘a little lower than the Angels’… and even Angels do not have physical bodies in the Heavenly realm?

Jesus was only able to enter the Heavenly realm AFTER he was raised up from the dead and given AN IMMORTAL BODY…

An Immortal body is nog like the natural human body, it is a SPIRIT BODY that can be dematerialised and materialised JUST LIKE THE ANGELS who created bodies for themselves in the days of before the great flood.

It’s interesting that when God killed then out of the world they did not DIE in their spirit but simply were dematerialised and their Spirit were ‘chained in spiritual dungeons’ AWAITING JUDGEMENT ON the last day!!! Thus, it show that killing the body of a Spirit Being does not kill the Spirit nor prevent it being active in the spirit realm which is why those DEMON angels were placed in ‘Spirit PRISON’!!! When Jesus died, his Spirit was A HUMAN SPIRIT and was dormant, inert, inactive, SLEEPING with GOD who created it - hence Jesus’ last words to his Father:

• ‘It is done…. Father, INTO THY HANDS I commit MY SPIRIT!’

… and he breathed his last (until he was resurrected!!)

And, as with Jesus Christ so will those who are deemed worthy out of all humanity at the judgement seat at the end of time. Those deemed WICKED by the judgement of Jesus Christ, including Satan, the demon Angels, and DEATH itself, will be DESTROYED… which means a PERMANENT DEATH… of which there will be not ever be any remembrance of them!!!!

The truth is what the scriptures that I posted said, that Jesus said that He came down from heaven and that if He ascended it would be to where He was before.

 

[Soapy]

The truth is what the scriptures that I posted said, that Jesus said that He came down from heaven and that if He ascended it would be to where He was before.

Brian2, I see you are struggling to maintain your stance… It is certainly true that the scripture verse was translated by Trinitarians to say what you are presenting - but IS IT TRUE what is being presented?

Both myself and Amazing Grace have showed you that the correct translation is that Jesus ‘CAME FROM GOD’ .. ‘WAS SENT FROM GOD’.
God SENT Jesus AFTER God anointed Jesus with Holy Spirit and power (Acts 10:37-38).

 

[amazing grace]

Some of the texts about the pre-existence of Jesus:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence (...) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”) (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

... 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. (...) 31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others. (...)

... 6:33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (...) 38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?

... 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.” (...) 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.

... 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, (...) 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

Did Jesus lie about pre-existing in heaven next to his Father before he was born as a human?

Nope, Jesus did not lie. He didn't say he preexisted "in heaven next to his Father before he was born a human".
It's all in how one understands the above verses - if one believes in a triune God, that God became a man, that Jesus was a God-man, 100% God and 100% man - then one will see a literal preexistence.
If one believes that there is only ONE God and that God is a single entity - that Jesus was conceived and born as any other human being, that it took a human being to pay the penalty of what the first man (human being) brought upon mankind - then one will not see a literal preexistence but a preexistence in the mind and plan of God.

 

[Brian2]

Brian2, I see you are struggling to maintain your stance… It is certainly true that the scripture verse was translated by Trinitarians to say what you are presenting - but IS IT TRUE what is being presented?

Both myself and Amazing Grace have showed you that the correct translation is that Jesus ‘CAME FROM GOD’ .. ‘WAS SENT FROM GOD’.
God SENT Jesus AFTER God anointed Jesus with Holy Spirit and power (Acts 10:37-38).

Neither you nor @amazing grace have shown me that the correct translation is not what the Bible says.
All you have done is show that you refuse to accept what Jesus said, that He came from heaven.
Nobody else is said to have come from heaven even when sent by God. In fact Jesus denied that anyone else has come from heaven.
And anyway, if Jesus was sent only after His baptism, we know that He did not come from heaven when he was baptised.

 

[amazing grace]

What it does say is that from Bethlem will come one whose origins are of old, from the days of eternity, from ancient days, from everlasting etc depending on your translation.

From Bethlehem and from the clans of Judah - from you shall come forth from me (God) one who is to be ruler in Israel - who's coming forth is from old, from ancient days - Jesus coming forth from the clans of Judah to sit upon the throne of David was foretold in OT prophecy even before Micah . . . that is my understanding of the verse.

When the Son of God became a man, that is when YHWH became His God. (Psalm 22:10)
And yes He was and is a man but also was and is the Son of God whose origins are in eternity.
You cannot say what Abraham, Isaac or Jacob thought of Him.

I can say what Abraham, Isaac or Jacob thought of him for it is in the OT scriptures.

 

[amazing grace]

Neither you nor @amazing grace have shown me that the correct translation is not what the Bible says.
All you have done is show that you refuse to accept what Jesus said, that He came from heaven.
Nobody else is said to have come from heaven even when sent by God. In fact Jesus denied that anyone else has come from heaven.
And anyway, if Jesus was sent only after His baptism, we know that He did not come from heaven when he was baptised.

I do not refuse to accept that Jesus came from heaven.
I do believe that Jesus came from heaven, i.e. from above, from God - just as "every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (James 1:17), just as "bread from heaven" (John 6:31), just as "I will open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing", i.e. blessings from heaven (Malachi 3:10), just as John was "sent from God" (John 1:6), Jesus "came from God" and "God sent him" (John 8:42) and Jesus “comes from above” and “comes from heaven” (John 3:31) - all these verses simply mean that the source and origin of these people and/or things is God. Jesus is “from God,” “from heaven” or “from above” in the sense that God is his Father and thus his origin.

 

[Colt]

Some of the texts about the pre-existence of Jesus:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence (...) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”) (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

... 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. (...) 31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others. (...)

... 6:33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (...) 38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?

... 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.” (...) 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.

... 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, (...) 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

Did Jesus lie about pre-existing in heaven next to his Father before he was born as a human?

The claims of Jesus' divinity are still being rejected today. Its the main reason those called to receive him, the Israelites, rejected his Gospel and put him to death. I have always believed in the preexistence and divinity of Jesus! Its inexplicable!

 

[amazing grace]

The claims of Jesus' divinity are still being rejected today. Its the main reason those called to receive him, the Israelites, rejected his Gospel and put him to death. I have always believed in the preexistence and divinity of Jesus! Its inexplicable!

Jesus proceeded from God and was devoted to God his Father in that manner Jesus was divine. Jesus's divinity - his state or quality of being divine was derived from God his Father and achieved through his obedience to God his Father.
Jesus prayed to his Father (God) - This is eternal life - that we would know Him, the ONLY true God AND Jesus Christ whom God had sent.
To KNOW something would mean that that something is knowable NOT inexplicable (unable to be explained or accounted for).

 

[Colt]

Jesus proceeded from God and was devoted to God his Father in that manner Jesus was divine. Jesus's divinity - his state or quality of being divine was derived from God his Father and achieved through his obedience to God his Father.
Jesus prayed to his Father (God) - This is eternal life - that we would know Him, the ONLY true God AND Jesus Christ whom God had sent.
To KNOW something would mean that that something is knowable NOT inexplicable (unable to be explained or accounted for).

And since people think they know everything that's knowable they assume God cannot delegate creative powers and authority to Creators Sons such as Christ Michael, aka Jesus of Nazareth.

I believe that the Son of God is from the eternal past as he said he was. He is divine and preexisted from eternity as a personality reality with the Father. But understanding or believing these things wasn't a condition for salvation, only faith in the Father as the Son taught.

 

[amazing grace]

And since people think they know everything that's knowable they assume God cannot delegate creative powers and authority to Creators Sons such as Christ Michael, aka Jesus of Nazareth.

Well, I do know that God gave Jesus of Nazareth power and authority. I don't know about "Christ Michael aka Jesus of Nazareth" because I haven't heard or read about "Christ Michael" as Jesus Christ.

I believe that the Son of God is from the eternal past as he said he was. He is divine and preexisted from eternity as a personality reality with the Father. But understanding or believing these things wasn't a condition for salvation, only faith in the Father as the Son taught.

So "a personality reality" became man?

 

[Colt]

Well, I do know that God gave Jesus of Nazareth power and authority. I don't know about "Christ Michael aka Jesus of Nazareth" because I haven't heard or read about "Christ Michael" as Jesus Christ.

So "a personality reality" became man?

Yes, a celestial being, the Son of God became the person of Mary's baby at conception. He is from the eternal past and existed in heaven long before this world was.

 

[Soapy]

Neither you nor @amazing grace have shown me that the correct translation is not what the Bible says.
All you have done is show that you refuse to accept what Jesus said, that He came from heaven.
Nobody else is said to have come from heaven even when sent by God. In fact Jesus denied that anyone else has come from heaven.
And anyway, if Jesus was sent only after His baptism, we know that He did not come from heaven when he was baptised.

Jesus says that no one has ascended into heaven who first did not descend INTO THE GRAVE.

Thus ‘no one’ INCLUDED himself… He did not say, ‘No one but ME has come descended from heaven…’

You know the scriptures regard Jesus Christ to be true in respect of the fact that he was a man BORN HOLY by the Spirut of God and EMPOWERED by God to do God’s Will, but you are purposefully teasing (testing) the wisdom and belief of those whom you know are telling the truth. You have been doing this for a long time now and it’s time you stopped it - you had your fun and I warn you that your spiritual life is in jealousy if you continue your ways!!

You already agree that Jesus Christ is ‘The Son of Man’ by title reference which then you seem to be at odds with in that Jesus Christ, himself, said that no man has descended… etc… and no man has ASCENDED … which would mean that Jesus was A HUMAN BEING in Heaven… which is patently untrue even by trinitarian standards!!! So, you have in fact, created an even newer belief of singularity… a BRIAN2 belief!!!
Jesus Christ WARNED that such a person as yourself would come about!!!

 

[amazing grace]

Yes, a celestial being, the Son of God became the person of Mary's baby at conception. He is from the eternal past and existed in heaven long before this world was.

Yes, Jesus Christ was foreknown (known before literally existed) before the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:19-21 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you, who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

 

[Colt]

Yes, Jesus Christ was foreknown (known before literally existed) before the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:19-21 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you, who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

You see Jesus as having been a glorified idea before this world was. I see Jesus existing with the Father from the eternal past. We aren’t going to agree.

 

[Brian2]

From Bethlehem and from the clans of Judah - from you shall come forth from me (God) one who is to be ruler in Israel - who's coming forth is from old, from ancient days - Jesus coming forth from the clans of Judah to sit upon the throne of David was foretold in OT prophecy even before Micah . . . that is my understanding of the verse.

I see no "from me" there.
However I should know by now that you would have an interpretation of the verse that has nothing to do with what it says and denies what it says.

I can say what Abraham, Isaac or Jacob thought of him for it is in the OT scriptures.

Where is that?

 

[Brian2]

I do not refuse to accept that Jesus came from heaven.
I do believe that Jesus came from heaven, i.e. from above, from God - just as "every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (James 1:17), just as "bread from heaven" (John 6:31), just as "I will open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing", i.e. blessings from heaven (Malachi 3:10), just as John was "sent from God" (John 1:6), Jesus "came from God" and "God sent him" (John 8:42) and Jesus “comes from above” and “comes from heaven” (John 3:31) - all these verses simply mean that the source and origin of these people and/or things is God. Jesus is “from God,” “from heaven” or “from above” in the sense that God is his Father and thus his origin.

It sort of makes sense but when I slap myself a couple of times I realise that if came from God or sent from God meant came from heaven then others would be said to have come from heaven,,,,,,,,,, but nobody is said to have come from heaven except Jesus, and he tells us that He is the one who descended from heaven (John 3:13) and that he is the only one who has ever ascended to heaven. (John 3:13) (and we know He did not ascend to heaven in His earthly life so that must have happened before becoming a man.
When Jesus said He came from heaven, that is what it simply means, not something that denies that He came from heaven.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus says that no one has ascended into heaven who first did not descend INTO THE GRAVE.

Thus ‘no one’ INCLUDED himself… He did not say, ‘No one but ME has come descended from heaven…’

You know the scriptures regard Jesus Christ to be true in respect of the fact that he was a man BORN HOLY by the Spirut of God and EMPOWERED by God to do God’s Will, but you are purposefully teasing (testing) the wisdom and belief of those whom you know are telling the truth. You have been doing this for a long time now and it’s time you stopped it - you had your fun and I warn you that your spiritual life is in jealousy if you continue your ways!!

You already agree that Jesus Christ is ‘The Son of Man’ by title reference which then you seem to be at odds with in that Jesus Christ, himself, said that no man has descended… etc… and no man has ASCENDED … which would mean that Jesus was A HUMAN BEING in Heaven… which is patently untrue even by trinitarian standards!!! So, you have in fact, created an even newer belief of singularity… a BRIAN2 belief!!!
Jesus Christ WARNED that such a person as yourself would come about!!!

Just as resurrected Christians will be humans with glorified human bodies, so is Jesus. That is not something made up by me.
Jesus also has taken back His God attributes and is also everywhere and also in His people.

John 3: 13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven— the Son of Man.

This says nothing about descending into the grave.