Convince me that God is loving

[Sgt. Pepper]

My kids, and nieces, and other kids I knew were abused in Mormon church.

I'm truly sorry to hear that, my friend.

The Bible is filled with "chosen" and hated people. It just depends on your race, where you were born, if God drowns you or not. Lots of killing and hatred by God in the Bible, very violent, racist, sexist book.

And I agree with you about the Bible.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why so many questions, why not just receive the love God gives?

 

[Trailblazer]

I don’t understand what you mean by “Why is God love?” Do you mean “Why does God love us”? Or maybe you mean “Why do some people believe that God is love?” Can you clarify?

God loves, but God is not Love, God is Spirit.

Some people believe that God is Love because the Bible says that somewhere, but it is nonsensical to say that God is Love. What does that mean? I think they are just trying to drive home the point that God is All-Loving, which is what Baha'u'llah wrote.

I already know that God loves us, according to scriptures and of course that is in the Bible as well as in the Baha'i Writings.

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.”

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

Only God knows why He loves us.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that Jesus is God Incarnate.

I believe tat Jesus is a Manifestation of God, which is supported by the Bible.

1 Timothy 3-16 God manifest in the flesh
KJV And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that Jesus is God incarnate, that is a Christian doctrine.

 

[Trailblazer]

Without the Manifestation of God I believe we would be incapable of being virtuous.

That doesn't make sense to me because I know virtuous people who don't believe in any Manifestations of God.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

To be honest, my attitude toward the Christian God is "screw him," and if he does exist, then he can kiss my grits. I don't need or want him in my life. I know better than to rely on the biblical God, and I'm much better off in my life now since I renounced my Christian faith. I wasted thirty years of my life as a devout Christian, and even longer believing and trusting in him. So, if someone piously said something like that to me, I would roll my eyes at them and scoff. In my opinion, relying on "God's love" would be like relying on the love and mercy of the deadly king cobra. When I was a teenager, Christians used to tell me that God loves me, but I was being beaten by my adopted mother and tormented and bullied by my older adopted brother, and I had been subjected to a lot of severe abuse and neglect in my Christian home for years. My adopted parents would sit in a church service on Sunday morning and praise God, sing hymns along with the rest of the congregation, and pretend to be praying, but when we got home, it was an absolute living hell for me. I learned later in life that the pastor and the entire congregation knew that I was being abused and neglected at home and bullied in school. But not a single person in that church did anything to stand up to my abusive mother and help me, and neither did their so-called "loving and merciful God," whom they claimed loved me. In fact, no one else in that town who also knew I was being abused at home did anything to help me. I saved myself by standing up and confronting my abusers shortly after I turned eighteen.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Evasion.

I was interested (not 'concerned') in something I have noticed over and over again... your total inability to admit when you are wrong. I think you know that what you said was incorrect, but for some reason you can't say so.

I'm interested in what that reason could be.

I think that this reply to Trailblazer is one of the most pompous and mean-spirited posts that I've seen on RF since I joined more than a year ago. In my opinion, it's permeated with psychological projection. I've conversed with Trailblazer in various threads and private messages for a few months now, so I know for a fact that what you said about her is not true. To be honest, I think that the kind of Christian witness displayed in the reply serves as a good reminder that turning away from Christianity was the right decision for me.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The contrary could also be said. Without the Manifestation of God I believe we would be incapable of being vicious.

Therefore, that will surely not settle the matter.

ciao

- viole

The Prophets do not teach viciousness but self discipline and self mastery. To be virtuous and of good character. It’s when we disobey Their teachings of love and brotherhood wthat we become like ferocious beasts intent on tearing each other apart.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK. Incidentally, I'm not sure why (some) theists insist on these "omni" attributes. The whole "problem of evil" goes away if you just weaken one or more of these attributes. And there's no way to establish it anyway. Here's a something to think about. Can God know that he knows everything?

No, there is no way to establish that there is a problem of evil. That is only a personal opinion.
Of course God knows that He knows everything. If God knows everything He has to know that He knows everything.

Why not judge God (if that was your meaning)? I think it's something to do with respect, but apparently it's OK to judge God and say good things about him. If that's the case, why is it wrong to say bad things? It reinforces my idea that the OT God was based on real life rulers of the time. Say something bad about them and they get offended and would hang you up, by your thumbs.

I think we can have opinions about God but we should not judge God since that is backwards, since it is God who judges us, not we Him. We can say good things or bad things about God but I don't think it is going to hurt God, although maybe God will be disappointed for our sakes if we say bad things and happy for us if we say good things. But regardless of what we say or don't say, I believe that God knows everything that is in our minds -- there is no hiding from God!

I do not doubt that that the OT God was based on real life rulers of the time.

I don't think there is any proof if you exclude scripture, and even then you have to accept certain ideas from scripture, like creation. No, I don't think Jesus was literally God's son, even divine. Actually I like the Messenger theory better, but it still needs some proof.

I do not believe that Jesus literally God's son, but I believe that Jesus had a twofold nature, so He was both human and divine. All the Messengers of God had this twofold nature, but of course this can never be proven.

It's difficult to accept that someone who, in the face of suffering, stands by and does nothing when capable is truly loving or benevolent. "First do no harm" is a fine first principle in medicine, but doctors do also attempt cures.

But God is not a 'someone' who stands by, since God is not a man. To compare God to a human and expect God to do what a human would do is the fallacy of false equivalence, since God is not equivalent to a human.

My issue with God not being loving is not because He does not come down to earth and rescue people who are suffering, it is because he created this earth in the first place, and it is a storehouse of suffering.

This is not about whether God is capable or truly loving or benevolent. Why would God come and rescue people from what He intentionally created? Think about it.

I think it's easier to accept that god is loving based on personal experience (if that applies), rather than considering the whole of human experience. If things go well it's easier to believe than when they don't.

That's for darn tootin' and it is a very good point. I think most people who believe that God is loving had happy lives, although there are some exceptions. But even those exceptions came out on the other end of their suffering, so that's why they believe God is loving.

I don't know if you have been following my personal story as related to @Brian2? The next chapter is, I developed a picture of God that allowed for benevolence and the existence of evil. Briefly, God didn't make the world, he developed as part of the world as time passed. So we can't blame him for how the material world is. Natural "evil" (earthquakes, lightning, disease) is morally neutral, and is just something we have to deal with. True evil comes from us, in all its myriad forms. Goodness also comes from us. God cannot change the world physically, but can influence our minds, with our cooperation. So, we can make the world, and particularly ourselves, better with God's guidance. God may be something external, or just a name for the better part of human nature. At the time I thought it was an external "something".

No, I have not been following that, but I agree with what you said: "So we can't blame him for how the material world is. Natural "evil" (earthquakes, lightning, disease) is morally neutral, and is just something we have to deal with. True evil comes from us, in all its myriad forms. Goodness also comes from us. God cannot change the world physically, but can influence our minds, with our cooperation. So, we can make the world, and particularly ourselves, better with God's guidance."

That is a very Baha'i-like observation. On another forum, yesterday I heard a Baha'i say that God can influence our minds, with our cooperation . Yes, I have been skipping out.

To those that disagree, this is just an idea that appealed to me and seemed to fit the evidence, so there's no point telling me I'm wrong. I'm not claiming to be "right" in any verifiable sense.

I do not think you are wrong, I think you are right!

Actually that was about "why" God is loving. If you help me that shows me you care, and I'll settle for that without knowing how your nature came about.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. This fits well with what Baha'u'llah wrote about deeds.

“The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than his life.”

“Man is like unto a tree. If he be adorned with fruit, he hath been and will ever be worthy of praise and commendation. Otherwise a fruitless tree is but fit for fire.”

Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156, 257

There's a 12-step program.

You are a funny man. Why would I want to 'recover' from the belief that God exists?
Admittedly though, it has its pros and cons.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Without the Manifestation of God I believe we would be incapable of being virtuous.

In my opinion and based on my experiences since abandoning my Christian faith, I don't need the biblical God or any other deities in my life to be moral and do the right thing or to keep me from doing something that might hurt me or not be good for me in the long run. I don't need anything from God, and I will take it a step further and say that I don't want God in my life. And no, it's not a matter of me "wanting to sin," as I've been accused of in other threads, or a matter of pride either. As far as I'm concerned, my belief, faith, hope, and trust in God were in vain, and being a Christian was an absolutely miserable experience for me. I don't need God in my life to be happy or to be a good person. I managed to turn my life around and began to heal emotionally only after I renounced my belief in God. I finally realized that my belief and faith in God were an emotional crutch, but I chose to give them up and make my life better. I'm emotionally strong enough to stand on my own, and I don't need or want God in my life. I'm more than capable of making my own decisions and choosing my own spiritual path without having to rely on God or any other deities to dictate those decisions for me.

In my opinion, my personal experience of emotionally healing and making my life better on my own without believing in God, having faith in God, or depending on God validates Penn Jillette's point that a person doesn't need God in their life to be a moral person. I think that Penn hit the nail on the head when he said, "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them, they would go on killing and raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine." As far as I am concerned, he was spot on in his quote.

As I explained in one of my previous posts (such as this one), being a Christian was an absolute nightmare for me, and I'm determined to never be a Christian again. It took me several years to finally break free from Christianity and deprogram myself from all the church indoctrination that I had been subjected to while I was a Christian and while I was growing up. It was actually very difficult for me to detox from my faith, but as I've said before, renouncing my Christian faith and my belief in God was the best decision that I have ever made for myself and for my mental health. I liken my experience of giving up my Christian faith to being imprisoned, only my cell door was always open and I never realized I could escape whenever I wanted to. Christianity was a prison for me, but now I'm free from it.

 

[Brian2]

You may need to be more specific with your question.

As a life long atheist I already knew what Christians believed, so there was no "finding out". I did discover that my experiences debating with Christians on the internet had given me a very narrow picture of the total breadth of Christian belief. I found so many fellow souls that doubted as I did, yet continued to consider themselves to be Christian.

I continued with my quest to know God (as I saw it then) and made some progress, I think. I said I didn't believe many things, like the trinity and so on and that never changed. I'll answer any specific questions you may have. Remember, even when considering Jesus to be just a man, he was pretty impressive about how to live. I found his statements about the most important commandments (love God and love your neighbor) to be definitive.

Something else I noted, the typical "Christian in the pews" at a non fundy church doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about theology, but they tend to be nice people. I enjoyed my time there a lot.

I like being with fellow Christians usually.
We don't get together to judge each other about how much or little faith we have or how thoroughly we have been brushing up on the intricacies of theology, or which parts we doubt.
(actually some places might worry more about that sort of thing but my experience is not at those places).

 

[Brian2]

To be honest, my attitude toward the Christian God is "screw him," and if he does exist, then he can kiss my grits. I don't need or want him in my life. I know better than to rely on the biblical God, and I'm much better off in my life now since I renounced my Christian faith. I wasted thirty years of my life as a devout Christian, and even longer believing and trusting in him. So, if someone piously said something like that to me, I would roll my eyes at them and scoff. In my opinion, relying on "God's love" would be like relying on the love and mercy of the deadly king cobra. When I was a teenager, Christians used to tell me that God loves me, but I was being beaten by my adopted mother and tormented and bullied by my older adopted brother, and I had been subjected to a lot of severe abuse and neglect in my Christian home for years. My adopted parents would sit in a church service on Sunday morning and praise God, sing hymns along with the rest of the congregation, and pretend to be praying, but when we got home, it was an absolute living hell for me. I learned later in life that the pastor and the entire congregation knew that I was being abused and neglected at home and bullied in school. But not a single person in that church did anything to stand up to my abusive mother and help me, and neither did their so-called "loving and merciful God," whom they claimed loved me. In fact, no one else in that town who also knew I was being abused at home did anything to help me. I saved myself by standing up and confronting my abusers shortly after I turned eighteen.

It can be hard to know exactly what to do to stop abuse in a situation like that, and especially when the laws and not really sympathetic and what could happen is that you would end up away from you family (which of course might be preferable sometimes).
I know a Christian who was sexually abused as he was growing up and finds it hard to forgive his family.

 

[Truthseeker]

Yes, it's better you don't argue, because I remember you don't like to argue, neither do I

I just answered @Trailblazer her question

The problem of suffering is so very easy to understand IF you believe in Advaita. I can prove it in 3 words, and have done so for @Trailblazer, but I guess she has nothing with Advaita. Advaita Wisdom explains all those "problems" like suffering very simple and easy, but I guess Abrahamics who are troubled by this "suffering" issue have nothing with Advaita

I don't know IF Bahaullah uses Advaita insights, I guess not, otherwise @Trailblazer would have tried using the Advaita approach to understand this

Question: how do you feel about Advaita Teaching, as a Bahai. Did Bahaullah never use Advaita and only talked about Dualism? I can hardly believe that, but I need to reread His Book to check this, I don't know

The teaching of Baha'u'llah says the Universe is a reflection of God, but God at the same time transcends the Universe. That is different from the teaching the the Universe is the illusionary appearance of God, which is what I understand about Advaita. Also the soul has the full image of God, but is not a part of God. I hope my understanding of what Advaita is about is adequate.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That doesn't make sense to me because I know virtuous people who don't believe in any Manifestations of God.

Without the sun life could not exist. Even though we invent light bulbs with artificial light that too comes from the sun. So too the Suns of Truth through the Creative Word spread the spirit of the age throughout the world. Although people have not credited the new ideas and concepts of this age to Baha’u’llah, the Guardian said that this new awareness affects subconsciously all people even though they don’t recognise the source. The same with the past.

In His tribute to Christ, Baha’u’llah attributes His sacrifice as being the catalyst for great learning, no doubt non Christians being affected.


By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things…He it is Who purified the world.

Abdul-Baha also attributed all women’s movements to this Revelation.

I believe Genesis gives an apt description of what life would be like without Manifestations or Educators.

Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep.

 

[samtonga43]

God loves, but God is not Love, God is Spirit. Some people believe that God is Love because the Bible says that somewhere, but it is nonsensical to say that God is Love. What does that mean? I think they are just trying to drive home the point that God is All-Loving, which is what Baha'u'llah wrote.

I see. So when you say, “Why is God love?” you mean "Why do people say that God is love".

I already know that God loves us, according to scriptures and of course that is in the Bible as well as in the Baha'i Writings.

So you already know that He loves us, but you don't know why.

Only God knows why He loves us.

You got it!!

 

[samtonga43]

NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that Jesus is God incarnate, that is a Christian doctrine.

Are you sure about this, Tb?

 

[Trailblazer]

In my opinion, my personal experience of emotionally healing and making my life better on my own without believing in God, having faith in God, or depending on God validates Penn Jillette's point that a person doesn't need God in their life to be a moral person.

Interestingly, a book I have read before but am re-reading now, Heaven and Hell, written by a Christian, says that one does not have to be a Christian or even believe in God to 'get to heaven.' Rather, he says that getting into heaven is based upon one's values, what they consider important, which of course determines their behaviors and whether they are moral. Someday, if I ever get caught up on posts, I might post a new thread with a few excerpts from the book.

 

[Trailblazer]

I like being with fellow Christians usually.

In a couple of days, I am going to a fellowship meeting for widows at a local church.
They will all be Christians, members of that church, but it is open to outsiders. Wish me luck!

 

[Trailblazer]

@loverofhumanity

When I said "That doesn't make sense to me because I know virtuous people who don't believe in any Manifestations of God" I had forgotten about this quote, but I just remembered it.

“One who does not know God’s Messengers, however, is like a plant growing in the shade. Although it knows not the sun, it is, nevertheless, absolutely dependent on it. The great Prophets are spirits suns, and Bahá’u’lláh is the sun of this “day” in which we live. The suns of former days have warmed and vivified the world, and had those suns not shone, the earth would not be cold and dead, but it is the sunshine of today that alone can ripen the fruits which the suns of former days have kissed into life.”

Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 72

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you sure about this, Tb?

Drop dead positive, although you can twist the meanings of verses in order to believe that Jesus is God incarnate.