Convince me that God is loving

[Sgt. Pepper]

Are you unfamiliar with all of the child abuse cases currently happening in churches? I experienced it. The phone call, detective asking me to identify children in videos. Others from church refused to testify. Priest–penitent privilege still exists in many states. They knew, he had been confessing for years. They did nothing. Prayers don't work. He is in jail now thanks to secular support.

Yes, there is a lot of abuse that goes on in some Christian churches today, and anyone who denies that truth is not being truthful with others or with themselves. I never experienced sexual abuse in church, but I did suffer from psychological and spiritual abuse as a child and teenager. I was also subjected to severe abuse and mistreatment for 13 1/2 years while growing up in a Christian home. I'm truly sorry that you experienced what you did while in church. I sincerely hope that your life has improved significantly since then.

 

[Trailblazer]

What evidence do you have that makes you believe that Christians brush off all the suffering in the world in order to continue 'believing' that God is loving?

The evidence is that they brush off the suffering and continue believing that God is loving.
And no, I am not going back through the thread and find the posts for you. If you want to see them you will have to look for them yourself.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who do you mean when you say ‘they’?

Christian children.

 

[Trailblazer]

Will evidence that The Christian faith tells people that God hates them be forthcoming? Let's wait and see.

The Christian faith tells people they are all sinners. For example:

Romans 3:23
New International Version
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

But the Christian faith does not tell them that God hates them, it tells them God forgives them and loves them nonetheless.

One thing is certain, however. God does not love us because we are lovable or because we deserve His love. If anything, the opposite is true. The state of mankind since the fall is one of rebellion and disobedience. Jeremiah 17:9 describes man’s inner condition: “The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. Who can know it?” Our innermost beings are so corrupted by sin that even we don’t realize the extent to which sin has tainted us.

Why does God love us? | GotQuestions.org

 

[idea]

Roman Catholic?

My kids, and nieces, and other kids I knew were abused in Mormon church.

Name any church, Google it - you will find abuse cover-up stories within every religious group.

 

[idea]

Will evidence that The Christian faith tells people that God hates them be forthcoming? Let's wait and see.

The Bible is filled with "chosen" and hated people. It just depends on your race, where you were born, if God drowns you or not. Lots of killing and hatred by God in the Bible, very violent, racist, sexist book.

 

[stvdv]

But she has explained to me patiently recently that she doesn't have to believe that God is loving for her to function well in life. She has gone through suffering, but apparently she doesn't cope any less well because she has this view. Why argue any more if I can't change anything, and she's okay with this belief?

Yes, it's better you don't argue, because I remember you don't like to argue, neither do I

I just answered @Trailblazer her question

The problem of suffering is so very easy to understand IF you believe in Advaita. I can prove it in 3 words, and have done so for @Trailblazer, but I guess she has nothing with Advaita. Advaita Wisdom explains all those "problems" like suffering very simple and easy, but I guess Abrahamics who are troubled by this "suffering" issue have nothing with Advaita

I don't know IF Bahaullah uses Advaita insights, I guess not, otherwise @Trailblazer would have tried using the Advaita approach to understand this

Question: how do you feel about Advaita Teaching, as a Bahai. Did Bahaullah never use Advaita and only talked about Dualism? I can hardly believe that, but I need to reread His Book to check this, I don't know

 

[rational experiences]

The basic human study.

Earth existed so did it's heavens.

You talk about earths gardens as you see it personally as the term a very large garden body.

You see what is an animal. You can't say animal unless you see them.

And talk as baby humans about first human parents.

Body as a biology type or nature can change.

So our body was created to feel pain.

If you keep safe and don't take chances are healthy then maybe you don't get to suffer.

Just about everything however does.

So a human who knew they cared loved were a healer mind spiritual knew I would hurt no one. Got to see animals ripping each other apart.

Living animals. Gentle animals.

Looked at self...asked a question what sort of meaning does this type of spiritual existence mean?

Answer ..you were punished for changing and being involved in eternal change. Once when no creation or space existed. The spirit being who did it entered into its new creation.

Humans. As all other things were sent out before us.

We said it's our karma.

So it owns no purpose. We just survive.

Aware humans therefore said to destroyer mentality... Theists science inventor civilisation fakery. Status about human Invented systems etc.

As it's just about survival you need to rethink how you mistreat everything.

 

[syo]

Convince me that God is loving

Haha! No way!

 

[stvdv]

I respect what you say here, but for a person who has investigated the Baha'i Faith specifically, investigated the claims of Baha'u'llah who claims to have infallible knowledge of God, and they accept that claim, if they look at what Baha'u'llah says, with faith and also reason, then they can be convinced of some things when it is pointed out to them from the Baha'i Writings

Fits perfectly in this context. Bahaullah has Spiritual "proof" of God. But when you and I and @Trailblazer read this then we have not the same "proof" Bahaullah has. We have bookish knowledge (Scriptural, but still bookish knowledge).

IF we had real knowledge (by reading) THEN we would not be "troubled by God allowing suffering on earth"

I know I have convinced @Trailblazer of some things this way, but she has a special problem with suffering of people, which, by the way,

So, to solve this dilemma we need to grow more like Bahaullah and make bookish knowledge really our own...real experience. And that is usually much more difficult than just reading Scriptures

We need lots of patience, and we need to purify our body, buddhi, mind and we need lots of perseverance

 

[Brian2]

Hah. You seem to have misunderstood what was I was doing. I know that for many people an epiphany (def: A revelatory manifestation of a divine being) is followed by an immediate acceptance of the beliefs of the nearest religion, Christianity in this case. Not so for me. True to my nature, I approached it in a scientific way. Here's how it went, roughly.

I had this experience, what does it mean? I seem to have received a communication from something that has power to influence my life. What more do I know? Nothing for sure. Where do I go from here? Well, the revelation followed a question, so I'll ask more questions.

True I did join a Christian church, but that did not mean I accepted all Christian beliefs. So why join? I thought I was being told to do so, and it made sense to to pursue my search with others that could contribute to my thinking. I "shopped around" churches before joining the United Methodist church, which proved to be reasonably flexible in it's theology. The last thing I wanted was to be in a dogmatic church that would just insist on their own version of things. So I didn't even consider Catholicism or the Baptists, for example. In fact I never did come to believe in the more esoteric stuff like virgin birth, resurrection and so on. (As an aside, I crossed non-Christian religions off my list of possibilities because I felt the cultural gap involved in say looking into Islam would be too great.)

I hope this makes it all clear. I welcome your further comments.

Did you find out about Jesus and the gospel and start believing all that while there?

 

[Brian2]

I think about it this way. God needs no benefits so it doesn't matter if I give Him the 'benefit' if the doubt.
It is humans who want to give God benefits but God does not need them.

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

Giving God the benefit of the doubt means trusting Him. This is what God wants us to do, and it is for our benefit.

 

[Brian2]

Benevolent: well meaning and kindly.
benevolent means - Google Search

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God is omnibenevolent as some atheists claim.
It is important to note that God is not benevolent towards everyone, He picks and chooses.

“No God is there but Him. All creation and its empire are His. He bestoweth His gifts on whom He will, and from whom He will He withholdeth them. He is the Great Giver, the Most Generous, the Benevolent.” Gleanings, p. 278

Loving: feeling or showing love or great care.
loving means - Google Search

God could be well-meaning and kindly and NOT be loving, since love is more than a feeling, it is an action.

We cannot know how God feels but we have to ask how God would show love or great care. I just stumbled upon an article when doing a Google search.

Why does God love us? | GotQuestions.org

I am going to quote a few excerpts from the article.

“This short question is among the most profound questions ever asked. And no human would ever be able to answer it sufficiently.”

• The angle this article is coming from is that why would God love us because we are so undeserving of His love. Of course, this is based upon the Christian belief that we are all sinners. I do not buy that because that is not a Baha’i belief. At least Bahais don’t believe we are sinners in the same way that Christians believe it.
• The question that can never be answered sufficiently is why God is love.

“First John 4:8 and 16 tell us that “God is love.” Never was a more important declaration made than this—God is love”

• I am sorry but I cannot believe that just because the Bible says it. If God is love, need to know WHY God is love. How can people be so gullible?

Since it is God’s essential nature to love, He demonstrates His love by lavishing it on undeserving people who are in rebellion against Him.

• Okay, now we are getting down to the nitty-gritty. HOW does God lavish His love on undeserving people?

Oh wait! We have an answer.

“God’s love is not a sappy, sentimental, romantic feeling. Rather, it is agape love, the love of self-sacrifice. He demonstrates this sacrificial love by sending His Son to the cross to pay the penalty for our sin (1 John 4:10),”

• Sorry but no. God did not sacrifice anything, Jesus did. For one thing, God does not have a Son since God is not a human being, so God cannot sacrifice His Son as Christians claim. For another thing, God cannot sacrifice anything because nothing can diminish the things that God possesses.

“Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess.” Gleanings, p. 148

Back to the article:

“God’s love is personal. He knows each of us individually and loves us personally. His is a mighty love that has no beginning and no end. It is this experiencing of God’s love that distinguishes Christianity from all other religions. Why does God love us? It is because of who He is: "God is love."

• I love it. How does God’s love distinguish Christianity from all the other religions? Does God only love Christians?

• God loves us because God is love, but nobody can answer the question: Why is God love? The only answer Christians have is “because the Bible says so” and the only answer Baha'is have is "because Baha'u'llah said so."

I rest my case. Now I'm headed for the atheist-agnostic kiosk to sign up before I lose my mind!

Why so many questions, why not just receive the love God gives?

 

[samtonga43]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God is omnibenevolent as some atheists claim. It is important to note that God is not benevolent towards everyone, He picks and chooses.

It is a conceptual truth (or, so to speak, true by definition) that God is a being than which none greater can be imagined (that is, the greatest possible being that can be imagined).
1. God exists as an idea in the mind.
2. A being that exists as an idea in the mind and in reality is, other things being equal, greater than a being that exists only as an idea in the mind.
3. Thus, if God exists only as an idea in the mind, then we can imagine something that is greater than God (that is, a greatest possible being that does exist).
4. But we cannot imagine something that is greater than God (for it is a contradiction to suppose that we can imagine a being greater than the greatest possible being that can be imagined.)
5. Therefore, God exists.
Anselm: Ontological Argument for the God’s Existence | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

God could be well-meaning and kindly and NOT be loving, since love is more than a feeling, it is an action.

You continually anthropomorphize God, Tb. I realize that this is your way of trying to explain what you don’t understand, but it just doesn’t work.

The angle this article is coming from is that why would God love us because we are so undeserving of His love. Of course, this is based upon the Christian belief that we are all sinners. I do not buy that because that is not a Baha’i belief.

There is that fundamentalism again. It would be more rational to say that you don’t buy it because you don’t believe it.

The question that can never be answered sufficiently is why God is love.

I don’t understand what you mean by “Why is God love?” Do you mean “Why does God love us”? Or maybe you mean “Why do some people believe that God is love?” Can you clarify?

“God’s love is not a sappy, sentimental, romantic feeling. Rather, it is agape love, the love of self-sacrifice. He demonstrates this sacrificial love by sending His Son to the cross to pay the penalty for our sin (1 John 4:10),”Sorry but no. God did not sacrifice anything, Jesus did.

I believe that Jesus is God Incarnate.

For one thing, God does not have a Son since God is not a human being, so God cannot sacrifice His Son as Christians claim. For another thing, God cannot sacrifice anything because nothing can diminish the things that God possesses.

You are as literalistic as those Bible Belt fundamentalists, Tb.

“God’s love is personal. He knows each of us individually and loves us personally. His is a mighty love that has no beginning and no end. It is this experiencing of God’s love that distinguishes Christianity from all other religions. Why does God love us? It is because of who He is: "God is love."
I love it. How does God’s love distinguish Christianity from all the other religions? Does God only love Christians?

Strawman. It is not ‘God’s love’ which distinguishes Christianity from all the other religions. I think you should re-read.

God loves us because God is love, but nobody can answer the question: Why is God love?

That is because it is a nonsensical question. See above.

 

[samtonga43]

I don't think any 'readers' (besides you) were concerned with whether I was aware of the difference between subclinical and clinical depression. I wonder why?

Evasion.

I was interested (not 'concerned') in something I have noticed over and over again... your total inability to admit when you are wrong. I think you know that what you said was incorrect, but for some reason you can't say so.

I'm interested in what that reason could be.

 

[samtonga43]

The evidence is that they brush off the suffering and continue believing that God is loving.
And no, I am not going back through the thread and find the posts for you. If you want to see them you will have to look for them yourself.

The Bible is filled with "chosen" and hated people. It just depends on your race, where you were born, if God drowns you or not. Lots of killing and hatred by God in the Bible, very violent, racist, sexist book.

If you are a literalist, reading outwith context, I suppose you would think this way.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I believe in God but I do not give God credit for what people choose to do.

I think it is wrong to give credit where it is not due.

Whenever I come across a kind, wise, understanding person I attribute their character to their own experience, their own background, their own path.

Without the Manifestation of God I believe we would be incapable of being virtuous.

 

[viole]

Without the Manifestation of God I believe we would be incapable of being virtuous.

The contrary could also be said. Without the Manifestation of God I believe we would be incapable of being vicious.

Therefore, that will surely not settle the matter.

ciao

- viole

 

[Alien826]

Did you find out about Jesus and the gospel and start believing all that while there?

You may need to be more specific with your question.

As a life long atheist I already knew what Christians believed, so there was no "finding out". I did discover that my experiences debating with Christians on the internet had given me a very narrow picture of the total breadth of Christian belief. I found so many fellow souls that doubted as I did, yet continued to consider themselves to be Christian.

I continued with my quest to know God (as I saw it then) and made some progress, I think. I said I didn't believe many things, like the trinity and so on and that never changed. I'll answer any specific questions you may have. Remember, even when considering Jesus to be just a man, he was pretty impressive about how to live. I found his statements about the most important commandments (love God and love your neighbor) to be definitive.

Something else I noted, the typical "Christian in the pews" at a non fundy church doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about theology, but they tend to be nice people. I enjoyed my time there a lot.

 

[Alien826]

I meant that atheists say that God is 'supposed to be omnibenevolent' according to some theists' claims. I did not mean that atheists actually believe that God is omnibenevolent.

OK. Incidentally, I'm not sure why (some) theists insist on these "omni" attributes. The whole "problem of evil" goes away if you just weaken one or more of these attributes. And there's no way to establish it anyway. Here's a something to think about. Can God know that he knows everything?

Yes, it is by actions that we judge, not that we should be judging God.

Why not judge God (if that was your meaning)? I think it's something to do with respect, but apparently it's OK to judge God and say good things about him. If that's the case, why is it wrong to say bad things? It reinforces my idea that the OT God was based on real life rulers of the time. Say something bad about them and they get offended and would hang you up, by your thumbs.

Yes, I think that is silly to say God is Love. I think Christians say that just to press the point that God is loving.
Loving the undeserving is one test of love and supposedly God loves the undeserving. However, these are just words in scripture, where is the proof? What does God do to show He loves the undeserving. Please don't tell me God sent His only son or I will show up at the kiosk sooner than later!

I don't think there is any proof if you exclude scripture, and even then you have to accept certain ideas from scripture, like creation. No, I don't think Jesus was literally God's son, even divine. Actually I like the Messenger theory better, but it still needs some proof.

As an act of love, I do not expect God to do good things for us, I just wish He would stop doing bad things to us.... That'd be a step in the right direction.

It's difficult to accept that someone who, in the face of suffering, stands by and does nothing when capable is truly loving or benevolent. "First do no harm" is a fine first principle in medicine, but doctors do also attempt cures.

I think it's easier to accept that god is loving based on personal experience (if that applies), rather than considering the whole of human experience. If things go well it's easier to believe than when they don't.

I don't know if you have been following my personal story as related to @Brian2? The next chapter is, I developed a picture of God that allowed for benevolence and the existence of evil. Briefly, God didn't make the world, he developed as part of the world as time passed. So we can't blame him for how the material world is. Natural "evil" (earthquakes, lightning, disease) is morally neutral, and is just something we have to deal with. True evil comes from us, in all its myriad forms. Goodness also comes from us. God cannot change the world physically, but can influence our minds, with our cooperation. So, we can make the world, and particularly ourselves, better with God's guidance. God may be something external, or just a name for the better part of human nature. At the time I thought it was an external "something".

To those that disagree, this is just an idea that appealed to me and seemed to fit the evidence, so there's no point telling me I'm wrong. I'm not claiming to be "right" in any verifiable sense.

Thanks for that. I also cannot understand why I have to believe that God is loving. I settle for the knowledge that He is.

Actually that was about "why" God is loving. If you help me that shows me you care, and I'll settle for that without knowing how your nature came about.

I'd like to take you up on one of those special offers but I don't think I can shake my belief that God exists.

There's a 12-step program.