You will get use to his answers that don't represent what you say. You are doing great!
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The bible and slavery - please post direct passages from the bible that you believe support slavery.
- Thread starter Kathryn
- Start date
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
It is rather amazing at times. If someone was here telling others how they could hire prostitutes, how much it costs, what they would do sexually. And answer several other questions they would accuse that person of promoting prostitution. And I would agree with them. But when the Bible does the same in regards to slavery that is different for some weird reason.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Oh noes, why the personal attack against @Kathryn ?
Is it moral to own another human being as property?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
It says a lot, when for so many centuries Christians debated and toiled over the slavery subject, but it when societies and states begin to secularize is when it began ending. Is it a coincidence that slavery began falling out of favor en masse, began to be prohibited and not too very long after it was announced that God is dead and we killed him? I don't think it is because slavery is something Christians (wildly ironic to boundless ends) have tended to support, if for no other reason it's permitted in the Bible. Afterall, especially in a time before penicillin and psychiatry and when we're not dumb by any means but know little about the world, do we want to risk taking a chance by prohibiting what God's Holy Word permits? Christian influence wanes, so why are going to keep it around when even many Christians have long argued against it?
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
And to think people actually read this stuff and then with a strait face go on suggest that it's the best moral compass for the modern world.
I think that's a perfect way to express it.
We Never Know
No Slack
First off you would have to show the bible has been correctly interpreted.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Which interpretation? LOL Which language?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Personally I wouldn't do it because it goes against the second great commandment by Jesus for me, which is "love your neighbor as yourself." It would be morally wrong for me to do it.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Or a sailor either, or anyone who worked on a ship.
We Never Know
No Slack
If there is only one true bible, then that one.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Come now, you know you're being obtuse. The bible is a collection of many books written over thousands of years in various languages.
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We Never Know
No Slack
Either there is one bible or many, which is it?
Because that would have seemed ridiculous at the time.
All cultures practiced slavery in antiquity, and it wasn't seen as a matter of morality, it was seen as a matter of practicality.
Especially true for nomadic and early agrarian cultures since they didn't have prisons.
The only other two options would have been to kill captured enemies, which is arguably less moral, or let them go, which generally speaking would have been a really bad idea.
Clizby Wampuscat
Well-Known Member
There are different rules of slavery in the OT for different people. These verses are not the totality of the bible describing slavery and God’s attitude toward the practice. In summary of the verses below:
1. Hebrew slaves with Hebrew masters can be released after 6 years unless the master supplies them with a wife.
2. All slaves are property and considered money just like an ox.
3. Only Hebrew slaves are to be released on the year of Jubilee, not all slaves.
4. All slaves can be beaten but Hebrew slaves cannot be beaten to death.
5. If a male Hebrew rapes a slave he will not be put to death if he gives restitution to God, if he rapes a non-slave he shall be put to death.
6. God says that the Hebrews can buy slaves from the nations around them, give them to their descendants and beat them without penalty.
1. Male (some female rules mixed in) Hebrew Slaves.
Exodus 21:1-6 ESV
Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. Ex 21:1-3.
This is specifically for male Hebrew slaves. It says that male Hebrew slaves can be purchased to serve for six years, then released without any compensation. This mentions purchasing as property and that they are not free to leave at any time since after 6 years they go free. It also sets rules for a wife of the male Hebrew slave. She will go free with him if he was married when he was purchased. It goes on to say:
If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever. Ex 21:4-6.
If a purchased Hebrew slave is married after he is purchased the wife and the children are not his but his masters. If the slave wants to leave after six years he must go alone. If he loves his wife and children then he must submit to being a slave forever since his wife and kids are the masters forever. So if a master wants to keep his male Hebrew slave he can supply him a wife and hope he wants to stay with her. But notice if the master supplies his male Hebrew slave with a wife, the wife and children are his slaves forever, the master gets new slaves for free even if the male Hebrew slave leaves.
Exodus 21:16 ESV
“Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.
This says that if a Hebrew steals a Hebrew man (not a woman) and sells him, he shall be executed along with the purchaser. This section is still talking about Hebrew men since in Leviticus 25 God instructs them that they can steal men from surrounding nations.
Exodus 21:20-21
When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.
The is still talking about Hebrew slaves since beating them is allowed in Leviticus 25 if they are not Hebrew. So a master can beat a slave pretty severely but just not to death. According to this a master can beat his slave pretty bad (not in the eye or tooth as we will see later) as long as the slave does not die within two days. If the slave dies as a result after two days it seem that the master has no repercussions. It also explicitly states the slave (a real person) is the master’s money or property.
Exodus 21:26-27 ESV
When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.
So no master can beat the eyes or teeth of male or female Hebrew slaves. The punishment is only that the slave has to go free. Notice the master can beat them other places such as the back of their heads, back, bottom of feet etc. with no penalty.
Exodus 21:28-32 ESV
When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten, but the owner of the ox shall not be liable. But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. If a ransom is imposed on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is imposed on him. If it gores a man's son or daughter, he shall be dealt with according to this same rule. Ex 21:28-31
This seems reasonable, basically if you know your ox will kill people and you do nothing about it the owner and ox are executed. This is only talking about a Hebrew person. What if the person the ox kills is a slave?
If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned. Ex 21:32
The ox owner does not die but has to pay the owner for the slave. This is because the slave is considered property as is said in Ex 21:21. Restitution is just as if he destroyed another person’s ox. The slave is not a person but property just like an ox as seen with the next verses:
Exodus 21:33-36 ESV
“When a man opens a pit, or when a man digs a pit and does not cover it, and an ox or a donkey falls into it, the owner of the pit shall make restoration. He shall give money to its owner, and the dead beast shall be his.
“When one man's ox butts another's, so that it dies, then they shall sell the live ox and share its price, and the dead beast also they shall share. Or if it is known that the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has not kept it in, he shall repay ox for ox, and the dead beast shall be his.
In these situations, an ox is killed by someone that is not the owner. The owner is given money to satisfy the death of his ox as restitution. Just like when an ox kills a slave as shown above. There is no difference between an ox and a slave.
Lev 25:39-42 ESV
“If your brother becomes poor beside you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: he shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner. He shall serve with you until the year of the jubilee. Then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him, and go back to his own clan and return to the possession of his fathers. For they are my servants,[e] whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves. You shall not rule over him ruthlessly but shall fear your God. Lev 25:39-43
God is talking about Hebrew’s here. You shall not enslave your brother; however, in Exodus 21 God has rules for owning Hebrew male slaves. Maybe God is talking about an actual brother. Notice here that is only Hebrew male slaves that are released at the year of jubilee, not all slaves.
Clizby Wampuscat
Well-Known Member
Lev 25:47-55 ESV
“If a stranger or sojourner with you becomes rich, and your brother beside him becomes poor and sells himself to the stranger or sojourner with you or to a member of the stranger's clan then after he is sold he may be redeemed. Lev 25:47-49
God makes provision for Hebrews enslaved to non-Hebrews to be set free.
One of his brothers may redeem him, or his uncle or his cousin may redeem him, or a close relative from his clan may redeem him. Or if he grows rich he may redeem himself. He shall calculate with his buyer from the year when he sold himself to him until the year of jubilee, and the price of his sale shall vary with the number of years. The time he was with his owner shall be rated as the time of a hired worker. If there are still many years left, he shall pay proportionately for his redemption some of his sale price. If there remain but a few years until the year of jubilee, he shall calculate and pay for his redemption in proportion to his years of service. He shall treat him as a worker hired year by year. He shall not rule ruthlessly over him in your sight. Lev 25:48-53
Here God is saying a Hebrew slave with a non-Hebrew master can be redeemed and sets rules for compensation.
And if he is not redeemed by these means, then he and his children with him shall be released in the year of jubilee. For it is to me that the people of Israel are servants. They are my servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. Lev 25:54-55
Here it states that only Hebrew slaves with non-Hebrew masters can be released on the year of jubilee. Non Hebrew slaves apparently do not need to be released.
2. Female Hebrew Slaves.
Exodus 21:7-11 ESV
“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. Ex 21:1
Here a Hebrew father can sell his Hebrew daughter to another as a wife. The woman has no say and does not have to agree or volunteer.
If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. Ex 21:8
If the master is not pleased with her as a wife, then the master must not sell her to foreigners and must redeem her. Notice she has no choice in the matter at all, she is a purchased slave to the master. The master has another option if he is not pleased with her as a wife:
If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. Ex 21:9
The Master does not have to set her free if he designates her for his son. Then he can treat her like a daughter, see Ex 21:1, he can then sell her to others and get compensation since she is to be treated like a daughter. This seems to be another loophole to setting a slave free. If the master also does not designate the female Hebrew slave to his son then:
If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money. Ex 21:10-11
So if the master wants a different wife and does not have a son then she must be treated as the new wife and set free with no compensation. But notice the woman is the master’s slave and property to do with as he wishes.
Lev 19:20-22 ESV
“If a man lies sexually with a woman who is a slave, assigned to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, a distinction shall be made. Lev 19:20
This is talking about Hebrew slaves because it says the woman is not yet set free. Only Hebrew women slaves can be set free by Gods rules.
They shall not be put to death, because she was not free;… Lev 19:20
The sin must be rape here, not consensual because the penalty is death. So if a Hebrew female slave is raped the rapist is not to be put to death. If a free Hebrew woman is raped the rapist will be put to death as stated in other laws.
but he shall bring his compensation to the Lord, to the entrance of the tent of meeting, a ram for a guilt offering. And the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering before the Lord for his sin that he has committed, and he shall be forgiven for the sin that he has committed. Lev 19:21-22
If a man rapes a Hebrew female slave then the man can pay restitution to God and go on with his life. As long as a man has plenty of money he can rape as many Hebrew female slaves as he wants without further penalty.
3. All Slaves
Lev 22:10-11 ESV
A lay person shall not eat of a holy thing; no foreign guest of the priest or hired worker shall eat of a holy thing, but if a priest buys a slave as his property for money, the slave may eat of it, and anyone born in his house may eat of his food.
Here God points out again that slaves are the master’s property and money.
4. Non-Hebrew Slaves
Lev 25: 44-46 ESV
44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. 45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. 46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.
Here the Hebrews can buy slaves from the nations and clans around as well as strangers (non Hebrews) that were born in the land. God says here again the slaves are the master’s property. It also says that non Hebrew slaves can be inherited by descendants of the master, just like property or as God uses as possessions. So God thinks of non Hebrew slaves as possessions and to be treated by property.
Also notice that it says that Hebrew slaves are not to be treated ruthlessly. In Exodus it says that Hebrew slaves can be beaten as has already been discussed. So God must not think beating slaves severely as long as they don’t die within a couple days is not ruthless.
“If a stranger or sojourner with you becomes rich, and your brother beside him becomes poor and sells himself to the stranger or sojourner with you or to a member of the stranger's clan then after he is sold he may be redeemed. Lev 25:47-49
God makes provision for Hebrews enslaved to non-Hebrews to be set free.
One of his brothers may redeem him, or his uncle or his cousin may redeem him, or a close relative from his clan may redeem him. Or if he grows rich he may redeem himself. He shall calculate with his buyer from the year when he sold himself to him until the year of jubilee, and the price of his sale shall vary with the number of years. The time he was with his owner shall be rated as the time of a hired worker. If there are still many years left, he shall pay proportionately for his redemption some of his sale price. If there remain but a few years until the year of jubilee, he shall calculate and pay for his redemption in proportion to his years of service. He shall treat him as a worker hired year by year. He shall not rule ruthlessly over him in your sight. Lev 25:48-53
Here God is saying a Hebrew slave with a non-Hebrew master can be redeemed and sets rules for compensation.
And if he is not redeemed by these means, then he and his children with him shall be released in the year of jubilee. For it is to me that the people of Israel are servants. They are my servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. Lev 25:54-55
Here it states that only Hebrew slaves with non-Hebrew masters can be released on the year of jubilee. Non Hebrew slaves apparently do not need to be released.
2. Female Hebrew Slaves.
Exodus 21:7-11 ESV
“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. Ex 21:1
Here a Hebrew father can sell his Hebrew daughter to another as a wife. The woman has no say and does not have to agree or volunteer.
If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. Ex 21:8
If the master is not pleased with her as a wife, then the master must not sell her to foreigners and must redeem her. Notice she has no choice in the matter at all, she is a purchased slave to the master. The master has another option if he is not pleased with her as a wife:
If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. Ex 21:9
The Master does not have to set her free if he designates her for his son. Then he can treat her like a daughter, see Ex 21:1, he can then sell her to others and get compensation since she is to be treated like a daughter. This seems to be another loophole to setting a slave free. If the master also does not designate the female Hebrew slave to his son then:
If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money. Ex 21:10-11
So if the master wants a different wife and does not have a son then she must be treated as the new wife and set free with no compensation. But notice the woman is the master’s slave and property to do with as he wishes.
Lev 19:20-22 ESV
“If a man lies sexually with a woman who is a slave, assigned to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, a distinction shall be made. Lev 19:20
This is talking about Hebrew slaves because it says the woman is not yet set free. Only Hebrew women slaves can be set free by Gods rules.
They shall not be put to death, because she was not free;… Lev 19:20
The sin must be rape here, not consensual because the penalty is death. So if a Hebrew female slave is raped the rapist is not to be put to death. If a free Hebrew woman is raped the rapist will be put to death as stated in other laws.
but he shall bring his compensation to the Lord, to the entrance of the tent of meeting, a ram for a guilt offering. And the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering before the Lord for his sin that he has committed, and he shall be forgiven for the sin that he has committed. Lev 19:21-22
If a man rapes a Hebrew female slave then the man can pay restitution to God and go on with his life. As long as a man has plenty of money he can rape as many Hebrew female slaves as he wants without further penalty.
3. All Slaves
Lev 22:10-11 ESV
A lay person shall not eat of a holy thing; no foreign guest of the priest or hired worker shall eat of a holy thing, but if a priest buys a slave as his property for money, the slave may eat of it, and anyone born in his house may eat of his food.
Here God points out again that slaves are the master’s property and money.
4. Non-Hebrew Slaves
Lev 25: 44-46 ESV
44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. 45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. 46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.
Here the Hebrews can buy slaves from the nations and clans around as well as strangers (non Hebrews) that were born in the land. God says here again the slaves are the master’s property. It also says that non Hebrew slaves can be inherited by descendants of the master, just like property or as God uses as possessions. So God thinks of non Hebrew slaves as possessions and to be treated by property.
Also notice that it says that Hebrew slaves are not to be treated ruthlessly. In Exodus it says that Hebrew slaves can be beaten as has already been discussed. So God must not think beating slaves severely as long as they don’t die within a couple days is not ruthless.
Clizby Wampuscat
Well-Known Member
So why would God allow for beating the slave under certain conditions? Is that just because it is practical? Could God have not come up with a different way to address the issue that you seem requires slavery to exist?
Exodus 21:20-21 ESV
When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.
The is still talking about Hebrew slaves since beating them is allowed in Leviticus 25 if they are not Hebrew. So a master can beat a slave pretty severely but just not to death. According to this a master can beat his slave pretty bad (not in the eye or tooth as we will see later) as long as the slave does not die within two days. If the slave dies as a result after two days it seem that the master has no repercussions. It also explicitly states the slave (a real person) is the master’s money or property.
Exodus 21:26-27 ESV
When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.
So no master can beat the eyes or teeth of male or female Hebrew slaves. The punishment is only that the slave has to go free. Notice the master can beat them other places such as the back of their heads, back, bottom of feet etc. with no penalty.
What do you think motivated the Southern Baptists of the Confederate South using the Bible to justify their slavery, and even their decision to separate from the USA and go to war to resolve the politics of that policy? IOW, why so much moral disagreement among Christians when they have the Bible as a moral guide?
And in a related issue, why did millions of Lutherans and Catholics conspire to round up and exterminate the Jews of Europe in the early 1940's.
The Bible doesn't seem to be guilding believers very well, and even being used to justify crimes against humans.
Morally wrong for you...but not for other people? If I enslaved you, that wouldn't be immoral?
Doesn't Jesus' second commandment apply to everyone?