Homosexuality and religious.

[Trailblazer]

I think I posted this before, but here it is again: Sexual Repression

There can be no sexual repression unless there is sexual desire, because you cannot repress what you do not desire.
If there is no desire, there cannot be perversions of desire. From your link:

"Nothing inspires murderous mayhem in human beings more reliably than sexual repression. Denied food, water, or freedom of movement, people will get desperate and some may lash out at what they perceive as the source of their problems, albeit in a weakened state. But if expression of sexuality is thwarted, the human psyche tends to grow twisted into grotesque, enraged perversions of desire."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

People don't identify as theives, adulterers, etc usually, so I assume for once, you're giving a straightforward view on what you truly think of a victimized minority group like LGBT+ under the sunglasses of the Baha'i faith.

See, now was that so hard? It only took 283 pages.

No, they are your thoughts, not mine.

I do see that the family unit is the way forward for humanity, but people will make up their own choices, to which I see will change. Meanwhile as a Baha'i we support the voice of the minority.

The key here is, IMHO Baha'u'llah is a Messenger from God and it is God that sets the standards humanity needs to embrace, and that includes me.

Regards Tony

 

[Secret Chief]

After all this time you still impart your opinion as to what a Baha'i believes. What you said is incorrect.

After all this time Baha'is still impart that what other people believe of their own religion is incorrect. But you already know this.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There can be no sexual repression unless there is sexual desire, because you cannot repress what you do not desire.
If there is no desire, there cannot be perversions of desire. From your link:

"Nothing inspires murderous mayhem in human beings more reliably than sexual repression. Denied food, water, or freedom of movement, people will get desperate and some may lash out at what they perceive as the source of their problems, albeit in a weakened state. But if expression of sexuality is thwarted, the human psyche tends to grow twisted into grotesque, enraged perversions of desire."

It may take a lifetime, but that desire can be replace with the constant remembrance and praise of God.

The desire of the flesh are changed into the desire of the spirit, and with that a balance must be found.

Abdul'baha gives many talks about changing bad desires and thoughts into better thoughts and more productive desires.

As suggested early on in this OP, the sexual revolution has radically changed our desire to be Godly, into pursuits of the flesh. So now it seems a radical change, but when I was born in the 50's, it was not so complicated, the family unit as a married couple, being loyal to each other, was still highly valued, albeit the change was happening away from these values.

Regards Tony

 

[Secret Chief]

the family unit as a married couple, being loyal to each other, was still highly valued

It still is. The married couple I met up with at the weekend have been together years and have remained loyal to each other. A lovely couple, Simon and Andy.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

After all this time Baha'is still impart that what other people believe of their own religion is incorrect. But you already know this.

A Baha'i shares what Baha'u'llah offered to all peoples of all Faiths, as to how they are followers of the One God. A great diversity of humanity has resulted.

I personally read past Scriptures and get to see for myself they are of God, it only requires a slight change in my frame of reference, to consider that there is only One God.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It still is. The married couple I met up with at the weekend have been together years and have remained loyal to each other. A lovely couple, Simon and Andy.

Good for them.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

I was only pointing out that you used healthy and happy, but it was Lawful and Healthy used in the passage, I was not quoting what it said.

Regards Tony

Unhappy would be, imv, unhealthy

Most likely people dying from adultery is still a daily occurrence, but none think of the victims of the gross dishonesty

Families torn apart, suicide, depression etc etc. The long term consequences to society are unestimatable. To look at the dysfunctional world where people struggle with their identity, is but one hint of the repercussions.

Regards Tony

Yes, yes, I said i was kidding about that. Of course adultery as defined "cheating on one's spouse" is negative and has negative repurcussions. ( although I think you're wrong about identity confusion ). There are plenty of outlets for sexual impulse which are healthy outside of wedlock.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Unhappy would be, imv, unhealthy

Yes, yes, I said i was kidding about that. Of course adultery as defined "cheating on one's spouse" is negative and has negative repurcussions. ( although I think you're wrong about identity confusion ). There are plenty of outlets for sexual impulse which are healthy outside of wedlock.

I personally, from life experience, will offer there is no healthy use of the sex impulse outside wedlock, but to say we can justify there is.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

I was not referring to sex out of marriage.

Ah. Then the idea that sex outside of marriage is unhealthy is ... what? ... unsubstantiated? correct? Maybe you didn't say that outright. But the posts you were responding to were addressing this quoted from Baha'i scripture. It started at post 5629.

So you don't have to scroll back. The question on the table is:

Is this true: "Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse"

 

[Secret Chief]

A Baha'i shares what Baha'u'llah offered to all peoples of all Faiths, as to how they are followers of the One God. A great diversity of humanity has resulted.

I personally read past Scriptures and get to see for myself they are of God, it only requires a slight change in my frame of reference, to consider that there is only One God.

Regards Tony

Yeah and it's rather galling to say the least.

 

[dybmh]

I personally, from life experience, will offer there is no healthy use of the sex impulse outside wedlock, but to say we can justify there is.

Regards Tony

I'm sorry, can you rephase? "but to say we can justify there is"

 

[dybmh]

There can be no sexual repression unless there is sexual desire, because you cannot repress what you do not desire.
If there is no desire, there cannot be perversions of desire. From your link:

"Nothing inspires murderous mayhem in human beings more reliably than sexual repression. Denied food, water, or freedom of movement, people will get desperate and some may lash out at what they perceive as the source of their problems, albeit in a weakened state. But if expression of sexuality is thwarted, the human psyche tends to grow twisted into grotesque, enraged perversions of desire."

The point is, for the vast majority of human beings, sexual repression is unhealthy. That means, for the vast majority of human beings, sexual expression is healthy.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ah. Then the idea that sex outside of marriage is unhealthy is ... what? ... unsubstantiated? correct? Maybe you didn't say that outright. But the posts you were responding to were addressing this quoted from Baha'i scripture. It started at post 5629.

I was not responding to post 5629, I was responding to your post 5633.

Easily proven false. Each and every healthy happy gay/bi/tri/whatever relationship refutes the statement showing the Baha'i writings are not infallible.
#5633 dybmh, Yesterday at 6:15 PM

So you don't have to scroll back. The question on the table is:

Is this true: "Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse"

The Guardian's secretary wrote on his behalf:

'Concerning your question whether there are any legitimate forms of expression of the sex instinct outside of marriage: According to the Bahá’í Teachings no sexual act can be considered lawful unless performed between lawfully married persons. Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse....."

According to the Baha'i Faith, outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse.
I am a Baha'i, so that is what I believe. Whether it is true or not is a matter of subjective personal opinion.
How could such a 'belief' ever be proven to be true or false?

 

[dybmh]

I was not responding to post 5629, I was responding to your post 5633.

Easily proven false. Each and every healthy happy gay/bi/tri/whatever relationship refutes the statement showing the Baha'i writings are not infallible.
#5633 dybmh, Yesterday at 6:15 PM

Please. We don't need to argue about this detail. The "statement" from the "Baha'i writings" I spoke about was in post 5629.

According to the Baha'i Faith, outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse.
I am a Baha'i, so that is what I believe. Whether it is true or not is a matter of subjective personal opinion.
How could such a 'belief' ever be proven to be true or false?

It's actually super easy.

The statement says " ... there can be no ... " that means zero, null, completely absent. All that's needed is a single example of a healthy gay couple, who arent married to testify to there health status during a period in their life where they were/are sexually active with their partner.

Since just 1 is needed and there's probably millions of examples, it's easy to show that the writings are false.

 

[Trailblazer]

The point is, for the vast majority of human beings, sexual repression is unhealthy. That means, for the vast majority of human beings, sexual expression is healthy.

Just because 'most people' have sexual desire, and repression of that desire is unhealthy, that does not mean that any kind of sexual expression is healthy. That would be like saying that because most people desire food, any kind of food is healthy. That does not compute.
Moreover, sexual expression is not healthy for those who do not desire sex, it might even be repulsive to them.

 

[dybmh]

@Trailblazer ,

Here's an objective measure of overall health: Physical Examination: Purpose, Preparation, and Procedure

 

[Trailblazer]

The statement says " ... there can be no ... " that means zero, null, completely absent. All that's needed is a single example of a healthy gay couple, who arent married to testify to there health status during a period in their life where they were/are sexually active with their partner.

Since just 1 is needed and there's probably millions of examples, it's easy to show that the writings are false.

"outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse" means it is never lawful or healthy. It is not referring to numbers.
"Healthy" in the passage does not refer to physical health status. It refers to overall health, especially spiritual health.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer ,

Here's an objective measure of overall health: Physical Examination: Purpose, Preparation, and Procedure

The passage was not referring to physical health.

 

[dybmh]

Just because 'most people' have sexual desire, and repression of that desire is unhealthy, that does not mean that any kind of sexual expression is healthy. That would be like saying that because most people desire food, any kind of food is healthy. That does not compute.
Moreover, sexual expression is not healthy for those who do not desire sex, it might even be repulsive to them.

Sexual repulsion is irrelevant; the discussion is not about requiring people to have sex.

In order for the statement in the Baha'i writing to be false, all that's needed is a, single, individual outlet for sexual impulse outside of marriage which is healthy. Just one is needed.

Simple example: 2 previously chaste gay adults desire to know each other intimately. Repressing the desire is unhealthy for them. Therefore expressing it is ... healthy ... for them. Case closed. There's one example. You're welcome.