What is an authentic Christian?

[Muffled]

According to every Christian I talked to all the other Christians that exist aren't "authentic" Christians. Christianity appears to be an auto-religion, and can only be evaluated by the person you asking. So, basically, if the person calls himself a Christian, then he is Christian. That's the only way I think most people can measure things like this. What Christianity means will differ between each person, Christian or not.

I do not believe other people's definition of Christian is valid.

 

[Muffled]

Is this the same as the no true Scotsman idea?

I have no idea what that is. How would one validate someone's definition of what is a true Scotsman? I know how a true Christian is validated.

 

[InChrist]

How does this make any sense? If a Christian is a sinner he is still a sinner, and not perfect. It means little that Christ's perfection is given.

I started this thread because a Christian claimed that some Christians are not authentic, and these were specifically Christians who were Nazis and slave owners. So how does a Christian Nazi live with the gift of Christ's perfection and it mean anything? To my thinking what you are saying is little more than a label, and a Christian has the label whether a good person or a serial murderer. A person's acts have to bear some weight in their righteousness, right?


This comes from the Adam and Eve myth in the Bible, so a person needs to assume that story is true, which it isn't. Do you think all Christians go to heaven even if they were Nazis who committed genocide? Explain.


I find the answer in this link quite shallow and incomplete. For example it starts out saying:

We need the righteousness of Christ imputed to us because we have no righteousness of our own. We are sinners by nature, and we cannot make ourselves righteous—we cannot place ourselves in right standing with God. We need Christ’s righteousness imputed to us—meaning, we need His holiness before God credited to our account.​

OK, so they claim we humans don't have our own righteousness. But we see many atheists act righteously. We see many Christians act with cruelty and contrary to what Jesus taught. So obviously there is no blanket righteousness that Christians get automatically, it takes work. And this link says nothing about what righteousness is, nor what a believer needs to do to have it. It is all quite abstract and dogmatic. It implies that if you believe these concepts, you are automatically righteous. Do you think you are righteous? Do you have to work to be righteous? If not, could this be why we see so many Christians act in unrighteous ways?

I think the points you bring up concerning the sinfulness of Christians, as well as non-Christians is excellent and validates the biblical message that we ALL need a Savior. Anyone can call themself a Christian, but the scriptures clearly lay out the behaviors/ attitudes than identity one whose life is submitted to Christ (i.e. the fruits of the Spirit - Galatians 5:19-26). Yes, Christians still sin and will as long as living in this fallen flesh and world. Yet, true Christians who are born anew in Christ acknowledge their sin, repent, confess, seek forgiveness, make things right and seek Jesus’ strength to change. This is an ongoing process for a true believer.

...If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

I don’t think I am righteous, nor perfect at all. But Jesus Christ is and that is where my hope is, not in myself. I desire to live a life that pleases and honors Christ and displays His love and truth to others, but I realize how often I fail. Yet, I know I am going to heaven and have eternal life (1 John 5:13) and it’s a gift, not something I could possibly earn.
I have known many so-called “Christians” over the years who as far as I can tell are fake; domestic abusers, perpetual liars, health & wealth pastors, and others. The consistent pattern of sinfulness in their lives with no evidence of regret or desire to change demonstrates they are serving self, not Christ.

I think the bottom line from my perspective anyway, is to look at Jesus Christ alone...not people. Only Christ is perfect and offers His perfection to us which changes us. It’s a daily process that goes on through a life submitted to Him into an endless eternal life of freedom from sin.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Nothing suggests any god exists, nor loves anyone. You describe an idealistic, you offer no evidence. When I hear believers talk about their religious experiences I recognize these are similar to any human experiencing something, whether a real experience or imagined. So sorry, I have no reason to take your word for it.

But the question is why don't non-believers experience what you claim is happening to you? Thus far it seems to be suggested that a person has to believe to experience God's love. Why not everyone? That is conditional love. And what is God's love of some believers when God does nothing to save their child dying from some disease? So even though God's love is claimed I don't see any real world effects of God loving anyone, especially children who deserve the most love from anyone, right?

So this explains why I am unconvinced that God's love is anything more than an abstract idea that believers hear about from others, and then thinks happens to them.


None of this is compelling evidence, or impressive to a rational mind that requires extraordinary evidence for these extraordinary claims. Notice Hindus don't claim this. Muslims don't claim this. Other religions don't claim these things either, and this suggests there is no spiritual magic at play, but a set of religious ideas that Christians adopt and employ for their personal meaning.

The claims made by Jesus Christ are exclusive claims to the truth.

What you have heard on this thread is a consensus of Christian belief that Jesus Christ is the righteousness of God. Why do you reject the evidence of our testimony?

 

[Secret Chief]

I have no idea what that is. How would one validate someone's definition of what is a true Scotsman? I know how a true Christian is validated.

This:

- No true Scotsman - Wikipedia

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Anyone who has not lived a very sheltered life will know what evil deeds men are capable of, and in times past these evils were magnified by the absence of God's presence through his Church.

Then God isn’t just if people keep doing it.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

This is why Jesus demonstrated that God's presence brings healing and deliverance. Doctors and counsellors simply don't have all the answers that God's Spirit provides.

Unless you are Job.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

It's unreasonable to expect 4 different people to write about something in exact same way, same style and for the result to be replica of the other writer.

It is if there is only one source: God.

 

[ppp]

The claims made by Jesus Christ are exclusive claims to the truth.

What you have heard on this thread is a consensus of Christian belief that Jesus Christ is the righteousness of God. Why do you reject the evidence of our testimony?

Simple. Because none of you have demonstrated that you know, or are capable of knowing the things that you claim.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Then God isn’t just if people keep doing it.

The appointed time for vengeance [see Isaiah 61:1,2] has not yet arrived. In the meantime, God offers sinners his mercy.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Simple. Because none of you have demonstrated that you know, or are capable of knowing the things that you claim.

The world holds to the notion that 'seeing is believing' but in the spiritual realm the reverse holds true. Believe first, then you will see.

To demonstrate to others what is held true in the heart is not a physical demonstration. If you wish to see evidence of God's works then have a look at Kathryn Krick's ministry (Youtube). Deliverance from demons has a physical dimension, yet, again, the power is spiritual and unseen.

What kind of evidence are you looking for when you ask a Christian about their relationship with God?

 

[Sheldon]

An authentic Christian will say it's sin and will condemn the sin (not an adulterer)

No true Scotsman fallacy.

 

[ppp]

The world holds to the notion that 'seeing is believing' but in the spiritual realm the reverse holds true. Believe first, then you will see.

Does believe first hold for all beliefs or just yours? I am guessing it only holds for yours and no one else's. Thanks for the special snowflake pleading.

By the way, like most atheists in the US, I did believe first. Sincerely, thoughtfully, and deeply. My deconversion was a direct result of my becoming more serious about my religious studies so as to be a better ambassador for Christ.

To demonstrate to others what is held true in the heart is not a physical demonstration. If you wish to see evidence of God's works then have a look at Kathryn Krick's ministry (Youtube). Deliverance from demons has a physical dimension, yet, again, the power is spiritual and unseen.

This is just your patter. It does not address the issue and entirely misses the point.

What kind of evidence are you looking for when you ask a Christian about their relationship with God?

I don't ask Christians about their relationship with their god. If that is what you got out of my post, then again, you entirely missed the point.

 

[F1fan]

The appointed time for vengeance [see Isaiah 61:1,2] has not yet arrived.

Vengeance? How does that work with the God of love that Christians claim exists?

In the meantime, God offers sinners his mercy.

What mercy? Basically it sounds like your God is a mafia thug who just hasn't broken your kneecaps yet. This violent threat some Christians claim their God is going to cause is NOT mercy or love. God just hasn't gotten around to committing the violence yet, and people are just waiting.

I suspect this whole Rapture, or violence, or judgment day nonsense is a coercive tool by evangelicals who use it to scare peolpe into conversion. I don't see you hard line believers even aware of the absurd complexity of what you believe, why you adopted it, nor why you repeat it. You don't even seem to realize we thinkers do not accept your beliefs as true. You just state them, and offer no expiation as to why any rational mind would consider them true. I don't understand why believers do this.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Does believe first hold for all beliefs or just yours? I am guessing it only holds for yours and no one else's. Thanks for the special snowflake pleading.

By the way, like most atheists in the US, I did believe first. Sincerely, thoughtfully, and deeply. My deconversion was a direct result of my becoming more serious about my religious studies so as to be a better ambassador for Christ.


This is just your patter. It does not address the issue and entirely misses the point.


I don't ask Christians about their relationship with their god. If that is what you got out of my post, then again, you entirely missed the point.

As the proverb says, 'The dog is turned to its vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.' [2 Peter 2:22]

 

[Redemptionsong]

Vengeance? How does that work with the God of love that Christians claim exists?


What mercy? Basically it sounds like your God is a mafia thug who just hasn't broken your kneecaps yet. This violent threat some Christians claim their God is going to cause is NOT mercy or love. God just hasn't gotten around to committing the violence yet, and people are just waiting.

I suspect this whole Rapture, or violence, or judgment day nonsense is a coercive tool by evangelicals who use it to scare peolpe into conversion. I don't see you hard line believers even aware of the absurd complexity of what you believe, why you adopted it, nor why you repeat it. You don't even seem to realize we thinkers do not accept your beliefs as true. You just state them, and offer no expiation as to why any rational mind would consider them true. I don't understand why believers do this.

God's mercy takes place within a context of justice.

2 Peter 3:9,10. 'The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up'.

The love of God would have us repent and be saved.

 

[ppp]

As the proverb says, 'The dog is turned to its vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.' [2 Peter 2:22]

Why do Dogs eat their own vomit
1) Their mother's regurgitant is their first food.
2) It is delicious to dogs.
3) To hide vulnerability to rival dogs and other animals.

Why Pigs Need Mud
1. Pigs need mud to regulate their temperature and protect their skin from sunburn.
2. Wallowing is an essential social behavior amongst pigs and encourages a sense of belonging.
3. Pigs need mud to cleanse their skin of parasites.
4. Pigs use mud to spread their scent for territory-marking and mating.
5. Wallowing may be a sign of swine satisfaction and well-being.

Surely Peter is not trying to demean dogs and pigs for acting as he thought God ordained them to act.

 

[F1fan]

God's mercy takes place within a context of justice.

2 Peter 3:9,10. 'The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up'.

The love of God would have us repent and be saved.

This is another example of an abstract belief, and doesn't account for life in reality. So much of what happens to good people is not mercy or justice. We see children get cancer and die. We see moms with children get diseases and die. We see families torn apart by accidents and disasters. If a God exists and is managing our universe it is dishing out all this bad experience. I know you believers want to have some absurd duality, that God created the universe but somehow isn't responsible for what happens in it, but the buck stop at your God, and if you are going to make all these absolutist claims about love, mercy, justice, etc. None of these ideas have any coherent and obvious application. Believers have to hear about them, read about them, and only then think it's true.

The biggest absurdity is the promise of an afterlife, and some think that is the goal, and are then indifferent to their living.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Why do Dogs eat their own vomit
1) Their mother's regurgitant is their first food.
2) It is delicious to dogs.
3) To hide vulnerability to rival dogs and other animals.

Why Pigs Need Mud
1. Pigs need mud to regulate their temperature and protect their skin from sunburn.
2. Wallowing is an essential social behavior amongst pigs and encourages a sense of belonging.
3. Pigs need mud to cleanse their skin of parasites.
4. Pigs use mud to spread their scent for territory-marking and mating.
5. Wallowing may be a sign of swine satisfaction and well-being.

Surely Peter is not trying to demean dogs and pigs for acting as he thought God ordained them to act.

Those that reject God and His Word are described in scripture as 'fools'. [Psalms 14 and 53]

Jesus portrays the man who rejects God as a man who builds his house upon the sand [Luke 6:48,49]. All seems well until the day that the storms arrive, and then that house is washed away because it has no foundation.

 

[Redemptionsong]

This is another example of an abstract belief, and doesn't account for life in reality. So much of what happens to good people is not mercy or justice. We see children get cancer and die. We see moms with children get diseases and die. We see families torn apart by accidents and disasters. If a God exists and is managing our universe it is dishing out all this bad experience. I know you believers want to have some absurd duality, that God created the universe but somehow isn't responsible for what happens in it, but the buck stop at your God, and if you are going to make all these absolutist claims about love, mercy, justice, etc. None of these ideas have any coherent and obvious application. Believers have to hear about them, read about them, and only then think it's true.

The biggest absurdity is the promise of an afterlife, and some think that is the goal, and are then indifferent to their living.

Life was no different when Jesus walked the earth.

What did Jesus do when faced with evil? What did Jesus do when faced with sickness and disease?
What did Jesus say to those who suffered?

The body of Christ, the Church, is to speak and act as Jesus did when he walked the earth.