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Mathematical Proof of God?

Venni_Vetti_Vecci

The Sun Does Not Rise In Hell
Disagree?, please present the scientific basis for your disagreement with references based on science.

I give praise and glory to God...while you give praise and glory to science.

So based on that, we will never agree on things.

I already made my case, and if that isn't good enough for you then i dont know what to tell ya.

What is your qualifications in science to make this decision? At present your rejection is only based on a religious agenda.

My qualifications is..

1. I have two eyes, I see things.

2. I have mind and I am intelligent enough to draw logical conclusions based on inference and deductions.

Those are the only qualifications I need.

No, the specific evolution of one species is not macroevolution So what?!?!?!

I never claimed that it was. It was you who mentioned the dog/wolf thing, not I.

Macroevolution has been demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt based on objectively verifiable evidence. Where is the science to base your objection?

Canines produce canines, felines produce felines, etc.

Until you observe anything to the contrary in nature, that is my objective, verifiable evidence.

Dead organisms do not evolve.

They also do not come to life, either (abiogenesis).

This ancient mythological assertion is based on a religious agenda, no science. Where is the science to justify your assertion?

The problem remains: What is your scientific education that your assertions are based on?

God is my justification.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
That is nonsense.

Unfortunately for you, your anger/frustration towards me won't make your argument better.

No anger or frustration, only science

For every event that happens at the quantum realm, you can count how many seconds, minutes, hours, etc. expired since the event, making the events themselves temporal...thus subjected to the logical impossibility of infinite regress.

Or, if that isn't good enough for you, we don't have to use the concept of time, we can just use the concept of counting, and the problem is still not negated because even at the quantum level, the total amount of events within the set (without an absolute beginning) would be infinity...and that is what the argument against infinity proves, that actual infinite sets (of anything) cannot exist in reality.

You may be correct that actual infinities do not exist, but potential infinities are real possibilities according to Aristotle and current math.

Again what is your qualification in science, other than a religious agenda, to draw the conclusions you make?

You have not acknowledged the erroneous description of Quantum Mechanics and time,
 
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Kharisym

Member
I agree, and perhaps you should tell certain scientists to stop with the formulations of these pre-big bang models which are meant to restore an eternal existing universe.

But that takes all the fun out of it. Science is driven forward by blindly reaching into the universe and hoping you grab a good theory. Its driven by human creativity in an attempt to explain the unexplained. To that end, scientists find it *fun* to think about crazy possibilities. A scientist may publish a hairbrained idea not because they believe it, but because it might spur others to think of something more in line with reality.

In other words, sometimes science is dropping a mentos (Your crazy idea) into a bottle of coke (The scientific community) to see what pops out (Genius!).

Also remember that *nothing* in science is beyond questioning. The strength of a theory is based on its predictive power, so if another theory has better predictive power then it will supplant the prior one. To this end, yeah the BGV puts limitations on universe origins, but that doesn't mean its all holy, it can be replaced by better theories with more predictive power.

I want to you to take all of the physical matter needed to configure a human brain.

And I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say you may be able to shape and mold the perfect human brain.

Next step...

Give this brain consciousness.

Go ahead, have at it.

If you can accomplish this, not only will I be shocked, but I will be impressed.

This strikes me as a god of the gaps argument in the form, "We don't know how consciousness arises in the brain, therefore God is the cause of consciousness." But this is a very dangerous place to put your faith--there have been many gaps in our knowledge where people found God, only to have a naturalistic explanation arise that answers that gap effectively.

We don't know what comprises consciousness within the brain, but we do have pretty good evidence its a product of the brain. Brain trauma has been linked to changes in personality, memory, and awareness. Phineas Gage, acquired sociopathy, changes in impulse control, changes in interest ways of talking, basic preferences are all examples. I have a whole book on Phinead Gage called "An Odd Kind of Fame."

During the height of the lobotomy craze in the US, behavioral and personality changes were documented as a product of these procedures. People were getting minor lobotomies (They weren't called that at the time) specifically to achieve these personality, impulse, and behavior changes.

Another line of evidence is de-cerebrated animals. Removing the neocortex in mammal structures have shown an elimination of what we consider cognitive indicators.

And not evidence, but association that might prove valuable later, we find that across species branches (Avians and mamals specifically) cognitive indicators are associated with isolative structures (neocortical columns in mammals) with long axonal interconnectedness between these structures.

So there is a lot of strong evidence that the brain has a lot to do with consciousness.
 

Venni_Vetti_Vecci

The Sun Does Not Rise In Hell
Meaningless windy rant,

Again what is your qualification in science, other than a religious agenda, to draw the conclusions you make?

You have not acknowledged the erroneous description of Quantum Mechanics and time,

Oh, it had meaning..it just probably went over your head.

But that's what happens when you pretend like you are informed on a subject of which you know very little; your ignorance is exposed.

Like Jay Z once said..

Careers come to an end / its only so long fake thugs can pretend.

Haha.
 

Kharisym

Member
How is it contradictory?

Now here you are, confusing me lol.

Yep, that's why I think there's a failure to communicate. At minimum I'm not understanding you, and hence my suggestion to think about other ways to explain the concept. Its taken me several tries to learn ways of communicating some of my weirder ideas.

From my perspective, there is no infinite past if there is no time. If the extraverse is timeless, then all events in that extraverse happens at the same 'time' such that there is only a single 'moment' for things to happen. If we think of this in terms of space instead of time, given a system with no spatial dimensions (a 0-dimensional universe) all items within that universe would be points, and would all occupy the same space. You could technically fit an infinite number of non-dimensional points within that 0-dimensional universe, and they would technically all occupy the same 'point' of null or 0,..,0 depending on how you look at it.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
.. perhaps you should tell certain scientists to stop with the formulations of these pre-big bang models which are meant to restore an eternal existing universe.
I will say something even bolder than your suggestions. I will say...God. God is the agent.
Irrelevant to the fine-tuning argument.
I want to you to take all of the physical matter needed to configure a human brain.
I do not think any scientists will say that.
That will be an assertion without evidence.
When climatic conditions change, species can die.
Human brain evolved in some 700 million years. You want me to take the ingredients and prepare it in a kitchen in half an hour! It is not Indian curry.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
From my perspective, there is no infinite past if there is no time. If the extraverse is timeless, then all events in that extraverse happens at the same 'time' such that there is only a single 'moment' for things to happen. If we think of this in terms of space instead of time, given a system with no spatial dimensions (a 0-dimensional universe) all items within that universe would be points, and would all occupy the same space. You could technically fit an infinite number of non-dimensional points within that 0-dimensional universe, and they would technically all occupy the same 'point' of null or 0,..,0 depending on how you look at it.
If you go by Hindu scriptures, extraverse is not timeless. From creation to final dissolution, it is 311.04 trillion years. Then a break, which they call 'Sandhya' (the intervening period) which is equally long before the next creation. Of course, I am an atheist Hindu and I do not believe that. :D
 
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Kharisym

Member
If you go by Hindu scriptures, extraverse is not timeless. From creation to final dissolution, it is 317 trillion years. Then a break, which they call 'Sandhya' (the intervening period) which is equally long before the next creation. Of course, I am an atheist Hindu and I do not believe in that. :D

Oh man its been a crazy long time since I've studied non-western theistic cosmologies. Isn't that a model that's also in some forms of Buddhism?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
For every event that happens at the quantum realm, you can count how many seconds, minutes, hours, etc. expired since the event, making the events themselves temporal...

You are confusing the "event" itself, with the observation thereof.
Your reference point is not the quantum state. Your reference point is you, who's operating in time on the level of classical physics.

It's hard, I know. Science, physics especially, is hard.
I know it's easier to just handwave it away and just make the fantastical, yet more relatable claim, that "some intelligence dun it".... But that won't get you to the correct answer.

If you want the most accurate possible answer (ie: best supported by evidence), I'm afraid the only way is going to be the hard way.

thus subjected to the logical impossibility of infinite regress.

You still on this?
I told you countless posts ago: there is no infinite regress problem because:
- uncaused quantum phenomenon don't require any causes that happened "prior" to it.
- time is finite into the past. it started at T = 0

This "infinite regress" problem only exists in the minds of apologists who utterly fail (although I think that "refuse" is more likely oftenly) to conceive of a reality where the dimension of "time" does not exist.

Or, if that isn't good enough for you, we don't have to use the concept of time, we can just use the concept of counting, and the problem is still not negated because even at the quantum level, the total amount of events within the set (without an absolute beginning) would be infinity...and that is what the argument against infinity proves, that actual infinite sets (of anything) cannot exist in reality.

So either way, no matter how you look at it...you lose.


lol

Gotta love how these apologists think they can just "define" reality away by making up definitions and rules and premises on the spot.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
My qualifications is..

1. I have two eyes, I see things.

2. I have mind and I am intelligent enough to draw logical conclusions based on inference and deductions.

Those are the only qualifications I need.

That would make every average joe human just as qualified.
So everybody is an expert on everything and all opinions are of the same value.

:rolleyes:

Canines produce canines, felines produce felines, etc.

Until you observe anything to the contrary in nature, that is my objective, verifiable evidence.

Just out of interest...
Are you aware that if we would observe otherwise, that evolution theory would be disproven?
 

Kharisym

Member
You are confusing the "event" itself, with the observation thereof.
Your reference point is not the quantum state. Your reference point is you, who's operating in time on the level of classical physics.

I'm interested in this--physics isn't my focus but I do enjoy reading about it. Do you have any sources explaining the experience of time at the quantum level?

Guth and Velinken also made reference to the high probably of a quantum multiverse in some video interviews they did.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Too wordy to be meaningful

Too facile to be meaningful.

nothing tacked on.

Except the unevidenced assumption that a deity of subjective choice is that "first cause" of course, or do you think the "nu uh" argument is compelling?

It is not a broad assertion (?).

Yes it is.

It is simply a fact that WLC is one of the most recognized Christian apologists, and he considers the KCA a stand-alone argument for the existence of God as referenced.

So his biased subjective opinion is valid. why? Oh I see you have left the actual weak argument behind and are appealing to authority. Oh, and look at the authority, jeepers...

I can cite other apologists that do the same.

Awesome, I can cite people who believe the world is flat. Oh, did you just switch from an appeal to authority fallacy, to an argumentum ad populum fallacy? ;)

KCA has always been and always will be a Theistic argument for the existence of God.

Nope, it was and is a first cause argument that some theists tack theistic assumptions onto, did you think blind myopic repetition of your claim would be compelling?

No one uses this argument for anything else.

Aw bless, a no true Scotsman fallacy. I just used it for something else, I even quoted the original that demonstrate it was a first cause argument, and again the clue is in the title..

FIRST CAUSE....ARGUMENT...:rolleyes:


You see, that's the trouble with absolutes, they make your arguments look silly. :rolleyes:
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
More meaningless rhetoric.

That's ok, you we don't need a heads up, your post is sufficient.

The references have been not addressed the references. All responses with only 'hand-wave responses' in this thread, because the references were specific the KCA was used as a stand-alone argument for the existence of God.

:tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:

Oh that's brilliant. :hugehug:
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
That is like me saying “I will mow my lawn at whatever time I mow my lawn”, that doesn’t negate the fact that it is I who makes the choice on what specific time (or instance) that I mow my lawn.

And it doesn’t negate the fact that the question of “why did time begin to exist in the first place” has yet to be answered.

Wow....:rolleyes::D
 
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